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Old 11-14-2010, 08:01   #1 (permalink)
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Startup noise.

Alright, here's the rub.

2005 Ford CVPI with an interesting noise upon startup. This issue is most prominent on a cold engine, and seems to be worsened by cold weather. (It was warm when I got the car, and the issue began when the weather went cold).

The problem:

- Upon starting the engine, I hear a metallic screeching sort of noise. Like a mix between a belt squeak and over-crank (Holding the key to start for too long, or trying to start an already running engine). This noise sometimes ends after a few seconds, but usually persists into the drive for an undetermined amount of time. Eventually the noise stops altogether, and does not return unless I shut the motor down again and restart it. By that time, if the engine is warm, it might not come back at all. But, say, leaving work at the end of the day... it's happens 95% of the time on startup.

The diagnosis:

- I have already considered the usual suspects... and have replaced the belt, idler pulley, and the tensioner assembly. This made absolutely no difference. I hand-spun the pulleys to no avail, and I have just started the car with no belt on it at all. The noise is still there.

- The engine runs flawlessly, and I mean that. For having a hair over 180,000 miles on it, it does not smoke or burn any oil. Other than a minor exhaust leak at the passenger side header due to a rusted nut shearing off, it even sounds good.

The hints:

- If it rains, and I drive the car around... or if I power wash the underside of the car (Dirt and grime builds up down there you know!), sometimes when I go to start the car, the starter will just spin hopelessly, the bendix not extending and meeting the ring gear to turn the engine over. Once I left off the key, and the starter begins to spin down, at the last second it will 'catch' and grind against the ring gear for a split second. Low and behold, this noise is exactly the same noise I hear when I start the car. Exactly...

- Sometimes when the noise ceases to exist, I'll hear a momentary increase in volume from the noise and then it goes completely silent. Almost a bang.

My opinion:

- If you ask me, it sounds like my starter is sticking. Starting the engine, but not coming off the ring gear properly and knicking the gear.

I have already been approached with the idea that it's the timing chain guides, but I have looked up said issue on youtube and it isn't the same. Also, the noise does not come from the front of the engine. It seems to come from the passenger side rear, down towards the transmission. Another hint, possibly?

I have also been told it could be a heat shield. This is logical, because it sort of sounds like a heat shield tightly scraping against another metal surface at a high frequency... further inspection revealed no such heat shields to begin with.

Allow me to reiterate: Once the noise has gone, it is gone completely. It will not return for the duration of a drive, unless I stop the engine and it decides to do it again upon startup. It is RARE that the noise occurs once the engine is fully warmed up.


Cheers,
- The Doctor
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:47   #2 (permalink)
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Question Re: Startup noise.

How does the power steering feel when this occurs??? It kind of sounds like you have low power steering fluid. When the fluid is low and cold, the system becomes aerated, hence the noise you describe. As it warms up, the fluid expands, the system bleeds out the air, and the noise is gone. Check the power steering fluid cold. If low, top off to the correct level with Mercon V trans. fluid, it's available at most parts stores. Don't use anything else.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:13   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

If you tried it with the blt removed and it still does it, you can rule out anything related to the belt. I guess you get it to make the noise long enough to listen under the hood. As for the starter, we've had some starter drives hang up on the starter shaft. We've pulled the inspection plate in front of the flywheel and sprayed WD40 up toward the starter nose to get the shaft lubed. The noise when starting quit. It appeared to last a long time that way. I believe it washed some contamients away in the process and never had too take the starters off.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:17   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird100636 View Post
How does the power steering feel when this occurs??? It kind of sounds like you have low power steering fluid. When the fluid is low and cold, the system becomes aerated, hence the noise you describe. As it warms up, the fluid expands, the system bleeds out the air, and the noise is gone. Check the power steering fluid cold. If low, top off to the correct level with Mercon V trans. fluid, it's available at most parts stores. Don't use anything else.
I started and ran the car without the serpentine belt as previously stated. Add to that that my power steering fluid level is normal. Great suggestion though, thank you.

Bert?
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:23   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert View Post
If you tried it with the blt removed and it still does it, you can rule out anything related to the belt. I guess you get it to make the noise long enough to listen under the hood. As for the starter, we've had some starter drives hang up on the starter shaft. We've pulled the inspection plate in front of the flywheel and sprayed WD40 up toward the starter nose to get the shaft lubed. The noise when starting quit. It appeared to last a long time that way. I believe it washed some contamients away in the process and never had too take the starters off.
Slow iPhone FTL. Wouldnt pb blaster work just a well? I may try this. Assuming the inspection plate comes off without breaking anything. Vermont equals road salt!
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Old 11-14-2010, 18:12   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

Got audio of this problem. It has been a lot warmer today than it's been recently, so, it didn't last as long as it sometimes does.


Do not mind the mostly blacked out video. I required some form of video to attach the audio track to, and I tried to black it out as much as possible. Partly successful..
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Old 11-14-2010, 19:04   #7 (permalink)
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cool Re: Startup noise.

Almost sounds like a starter. Not a hard one to get out, take it out and check the drive gear and ring gear teeth. Bench test it too to see if it's staying engaged when removing the power from the solenoid lead.
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Old 11-14-2010, 19:07   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird100636 View Post
Almost sounds like a starter. Not a hard one to get out, take it out and check the drive gear and ring gear teeth. Bench test it too to see if it's staying engaged when removing the power from the solenoid lead.
I may do this if lubricating it doesn't work. Removing the starter will have to wait for a day off from work.
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Old 11-15-2010, 13:07   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

Alright, I took off the inspection cover... if you can even call it one. Due to it's location, and size, it is rather difficult to see anything. However, I was able to see the starter gear.

Now, I started the car (noise and all) to drive it up onto my ramps and stick my stands underneath (Safety first, kids). Unbolted the inspection plate, and sprayed quite a lot of PB up at the starter gear (Which was basically all I could aim at). I've never seen this starter before, so I'm not sure how close the gear is supposed to be to the ring gear.. but it was pretty close. From what I could see of the ring gear, it didn't appear to be massively chewed up or anything.. In fact, it looked rather normal to me.

Thing about it is, when I started the car after doing this, it didn't make hardly any of the noise. But the real truth will unfold tomorrow when I leave for work, after the car has sat unstarted for the night.

I did notice something odd.. When I went to back off my ramps, and I put it into reverse (Foot on the brake), it was making the noise, but faintly and intermittently... Putting it back into park (Idling back up again) it went away. Down into reverse (or drive, it doesn't matter) again, same thing. Faint, but there.. and not too consistent. This stopped after around thirty seconds though.

The starter has a Remanufactured sticker on it.

And completely off topic, I also realized that my front anti-roll bar has about an inch/inch and a half worth of play in it. It appears the end links of the bar have something going on there.. where the bar mounts to the arm (Can't recall the technical term for it) that bolts to the hub. Looks as if stuff is missing... This might explain the massive body roll I've got up front. Hah.

I soaked two of the three starter mounting bolts in PB. The rather hidden one I didn't feel like contorting myself to get to because I was no longer in the mood for extra effort.



Let's assume this doesn't solve my problem. Thoughts?
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Old 11-15-2010, 13:44   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Startup noise.

It does sound like the bendix in the starter is hanging.
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