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Old 04-24-2003, 11:28   #1 (permalink)
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Hondas

What do u think of them?

Comments from anyone who owned, driven or raced one?

Personally I think they are grossly overrated and suffer many fundamental flaws in thier design philosophy.
Only 2 rwds in their whole lineup.
Highly touted VTEC seems to deliver less torque at higher rpms that higher displacement/turbo donks in their competition.
Inferior value & performance to their competition (NSX vs. Dodge Viper, TypeR Teg vs. 200sx, S2000 vs. MX5 sp, Prelude vs. XR6T, Accord vs. Fairmont, ok Civic is on par with Corolla).
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Old 04-24-2003, 11:29   #2 (permalink)
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I have taken some crap for my thinking in another thread in which it was inappropriate of me to reply. As a response to my challenge to beat any Honda except an NSX with a Gen3 Holden, irrelevant remarks were made to oil consumption, ancient suspension, pushrods, poor power output of the 302/308/Ecotec engines. And great mention was made of the 172kW 2L S2000 motor and Honda's engineering prowess.

#1. I'm NOT a Holden fan. It was prolly silly of me to mention a Holden in this forum. The Commodore DOES has many flaws. But I still reckon that it's quicker than a certain Honda roadster costing 2x more, pushrods n all. Grip wise, SS Commodores regularly beat similarly priced TypeR Integras in the GTP racing series, despite their ancient suspension. Oh, and oil consumption has not been a problem on this particular Holden.

#2. A 302/308 gets 165kW. A blown Ecotec makes ~170kW. Some of these engines are based on 30yo designs. So how come a newfangled VTEC 2.0l S2000 donk can only make almost the same power and far less torque throughout the rev range but yet costs far more to design and manufacture? "Superior engineering?"

If a company has better engineers, then how come it costs them more to produce a product with similar specs compared to its competition that uses out of date designs.
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Old 04-24-2003, 11:35   #3 (permalink)
w w w .eafalcon. c o m
 
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la la la la la opps sorry where am I ???? zzoh thats right its Ford Forums ;-)
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Old 04-24-2003, 19:51   #4 (permalink)
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So fundamentally what your saying is that the world should stick to engine designs that have already proven to work, whilst at the same time advancing them forward using pre-existing technology ie in this case forced induction ?

Do I hear a steam train coming?

Hell even I don't all hondas, but you do have to take a step back and congradulate their engineering teams for what they have created.
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Old 04-24-2003, 19:52   #5 (permalink)
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Ahh, ok.... Aussie spec Mustang Cobra vs. S2000. Who would win? And I once raced this late 90's Integra TypeR from a 70km/h roll with a stock auto EF Gli and won. Is this possible or wasn't he trying? And say someone challenged my 14.4s uh 220kW AU3 XR8 in an S2000. Who would win?

Windsor vs. S2000 motor, which is a "better engineered" motor?
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Old 04-24-2003, 20:15   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cancerman
Windsor vs. S2000 motor, which is a "better engineered" motor?
Well as Kw per L is usually used as a clear indication between Brains or Brawn, the s2000.

How can you compare those two cars ? Its like comparing a Ford Cougar to a GTR Skyline ??

And a word of advice - just because you beat a car off the lights doesn't mean your car is faster - only gauge of that would be if you drove the 2 cars yourself with identical conditions on the day.

I once beat a Skyline GTR off the lights once- the other driver missed 2nd gear (the twat). I was in a vr v8. I think not!
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Old 04-25-2003, 01:01   #7 (permalink)
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i drive a Honda, my sister owns it but im currently looking after it.

My comments:

8 months+ (the length of time my sister has owned it) without a single breakdown, replacement of any part or such and such in a 12 year old civic cant be bad.

Just from driving this car day in day out for a few weeks, i wouldnt hesistate to add Honda to my list of "cars to consider when buying". The great economy, and amazing amount of space i get, the working air conditioning and rev happy engine make it all worth while.

Just from my own experience and opinion.
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Old 04-25-2003, 01:17   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave_au
Well as Kw per L is usually used as a clear indication between Brains or Brawn, the s2000.
Really. So a 220kW 5.7l Gen3 has less "brains" than a 220kW 5.0l Windsor V8 or a 215i HSV 308. A 220kW 5.0l Merc S500 motor has less "brains" than a 300hp Mustang 289 Windsor. Of course the king of the lot would have to b a 100hp 1.0L bike motor. Hell we got some 1.8L cars pushing only 100hp, if we were smart, we'll replace them with bike engines.

kW per L doesn't indicate SFA. What about power, torque, throttle response, power delivery, weight, size, fuel economy, NVH?

Quote:
How can you compare those two cars ? Its like comparing a Ford Cougar to a GTR Skyline ??

So, which car is the Cougar and which is the GTR?

Quote:
And a word of advice - just because you beat a car off the lights doesn't mean your car is faster - only gauge of that would be if you drove the 2 cars yourself with identical conditions on the day.
Ok, so I'm asking which YOU think is faster?

Quote:
I once beat a Skyline GTR off the lights once- the other driver missed 2nd gear (the twat). I was in a vr v8. I think not!
I once beat an Integra TypeR. The other driver didn't miss any gears. What should I think?

Quote:
Hell even I don't all hondas, but you do have to take a step back and congradulate their engineering teams for what they have created.
Only a brilliant engineer can make a 9000rpm donk. Kudos on doing it.
Only a stupid enginner uses an overly complex, gimmicky and expensive design to achieve something achieveable with a far simpler and cheaper (SR20DET shouldn't b too hard to fit in an S2k) design.
And only a stupid consumer would pay extra for an overly complex and gimmicky product which achieves the same result as its cheaper competition.

Engine design teams should design engines that work. If ur new design is no better, just more complex than ur old 1, WTF have u been doing?
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Old 04-25-2003, 01:36   #9 (permalink)
Faster than Zyrtec
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cancerman
Really. So a 220kW 5.7l Gen3 has less "brains" than a 220kW 5.0l Windsor V8 or a 215i HSV 308. A 220kW 5.0l Merc S500 motor has less "brains" than a 300hp Mustang 289 Windsor. Of course the king of the lot would have to b a 100hp 1.0L bike motor. Hell we got some 1.8L cars pushing only 100hp, if we were smart, we'll replace them with bike engines.
Congrads, your finally getting it and just proved my point. Ducati's 900cc pushes 74kw (101HP) @8750RPM and 92NM at 7000 rpm. Were looking at size to power here - that really means how efficient the engine is - thats what you call brains.

Small engine + big power of "X1" = hightech
Big engine + big power of "X1" = capacity that could have been spent better.


Of course increasing capacity will get more kw - but its when less capacity has been used to achieve kws. Imagine if it was possible to double the size of that engine, keep its Kw/Nm in ratio and then compare it against the falcon

s2000(x2) 4.0L 352kw, 416NM
falcon 4.0L 182kw, 380NM

sure the honda has a higher ratio or kw to Nm, but its designed for a coupe, much like how a bike engine is designed to a, suprise suprise, bike.

Quote:
Ok, so I'm asking which YOU think is faster?
Well according to motor, the bastard son of the original Integra type-R still beats BA XR6 Falcon NA. So between the original type R (I assume) and your auto EL gli, its the Integra!

Quote:
What about power, torque, throttle response, power delivery, weight, size, fuel economy
Well out of those, power, torque and size have been covered by the KwL formula. Weight, size, power delivery and fuel economy are arguments to factor towards the cars themselves - if you havent noticed, u and I seem to be arguing efficient engines ??

Im also not going to stand here arguing about the price of Hondas. I think they are overpriced. I also think they trade in a lot of goodwill. They seem to be pricemakers in Aus - they set the price, people still buy their cars. Maybe the technology gimic does work? Because people still buy their cars. Hell the new NSX is 245k new, Id buy an M5 for that and still have enough money to buy a fairmont/calais/something for the wife to drive.
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Old 04-25-2003, 01:57   #10 (permalink)
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My head hurts from all this arguing.
And yes, I do like Honda, I like all car companies...well most of them
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