LunaticSVT

If you have issues with the way that this site is run then i suggest that you read what you agreed to upon signing up for this site. I have quoted the TOS page several times because people tend to FORGET what they agreed to.

Shall I do this again? Remember you agreed to these rules upon signing up on here and being allowed to post on here.

THE very first sentence in the TOS is:

""Offensive, illegal, abusive or deliberately inflammatory messages are not to be posted.""

I have read the first offending and removed post that XR805 made. There was NOT ONE bit of information as to what the problem was or what the resolution was. ALL that the post contained was a blatant defamatory attack against Herrods. IT was nothing else but that. I have the original thread I can repost the contents of this if necessary for all those that are going to get wound up over this. All the thread was doing was starting a flame war between XR805 and other members on this site. Rob from Herrods had caught wind of this and came in here wanting to know what was going on. We had already removed this. WE here at FF.com are not going to be your ranting board to defame or slander another person. There are several instances in the TOS that address this issue. Each one was broken and I for onewill not tollerate this.

Further in the TOS it states:

""By becoming a Member of the FordForums.com system, you agree not use the FordForums.com Forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or which otherwise violates any law.""

I think that line itself describes why the thread was removed. If you have issues then you need to contact myself, HSE2 or DK. We are all admins on this site and we have the final authority on what is deemed inappropriate. The Moderators here also have that authority, but the admins have the FINAL say in this.

This person did not get banned. THe post was removed because it did not follow the TOS and was a bold attack and that was all it was. There was nothing else in regards to this thread that would have saved it. There was no information. Also, to compare this action to what LS1.com did with HSVnothappy is not an equal comparison. HSVnothappy posted the information that he did. he posted it here the same way that he did on LS1.com. His post dealt with details on what was done how it happened how he approached the dealer and what thier response to this was. There was information in that thread. Lets look at what was posted on here regarding Herrods....

ORIGINAL POST: This is a WARNING to all people who are thinking of going to Herrod in Thomastown. Many of you people in FF are aware of rob herrod's high reputation and experience with fords and enhancements. But many of you are not aware of how many people in Victoria he has RIPPED off, including an attempt on me!!
As he is regarded as one of the best Ford Enhancement specialists around, people tend to BELIEVE everything he says and what he suggests to do. He takes advantage of his high status to rip off all those people who know little about mechanical issues in the vehicle.

WHERE in that post is anything stating any technical details any information about what the problem is, what the diagnosis is and what what Herrods response was. I do not see anything but an attack on Herrods. This is completely different than what HSVnot happy posted. HSVnothappy also posted his exact problems on here as he did on LS1.com. LS1.com closed his threads because of the fact that he posted his message in more than one forum. In fact he posted it all over LS1.com a total of 32 times. one of His posts were left intact, but the difference on the two is that HSV detailed the information and the problems. XR805 did not do anything of the sort. As you read above...his post is far from information and is teatering the line of slander. If HSV posted nothing but attacks then we would have done the same thing that we did with XR's post. But HSV did not he detailed his problems.

My final say in this is that the post is too far over the line of slander and the Moderators/admins that took care of this issue before it became worse did the right thing. Not only would XR805 be drug to court I could as well. I am the owner of this site and i do not want to be part of drug into or be any part of any lawsuit. This is a Privately run server and is paid for out of my pocket and the pockets of the donating members.


Opinions are fine, but there is a fine line between slander\defamation of character and opinion. The posts was over the opinion line and treated as such. Your little rant there about how we would shut you down etc is a little over the line. You are allowed opinions, but when it come to slander then it is not an opinion. There have been other posts on this site that have gone in detail on what the problems were and what was done or not done by persons, dealers and tuners alike. There was a post by Aussie pete that was made a long time ago about dislikes, but that post also included the facts of the issue. The issues were eventually resolved and rectified. I did not see anything like that from the original post in question. As far as you stating that we would treat your post the same way is just ignorant. You are now going to label this site and judge it because we closed/moved a thread that was slanderious. As i have harped before if he gave information and not just attack Herrod's then it would have been left up, but he did NOT do that.

Maybe Herrods is a god. I do not know. I have only talked to Rob one time 4 months ago. I have never had work done by him or have purchased anything from him. This board is not sponsored by Herrod's, Ford or Tickford. This is an independantly run board that is run by of all things a GM fanatic. This place is set up for the enthusiasts. This is not a place to come in and slam people or a company. That is clearly stated in the TOS when you and everyone else signed up to use this forum. These things are set in the TOS for a reason. That is so that we are not what XR805 was trying to make it. This site will not allow slander on anyone. be it GM be it Ford be it Herrods be it you or me. Would you want the same statements made against you? I think not. you would want to have atleast the details published so that atleast there was your side of the story somewhat brought out. Herrod's was not here to post his side of what happened.

That is your choice and i am sorry that you feel the way that you do. It is sad that you can not see what the point of the closure was and why we did what we did. Others may follow your lead and that too is sad. It is too bad that because someone that chose to slander another and this site interviened that you and others are choosing to leave. You chose to try to justify this by compairing apples to watermelons with the HSVnothappy thread and what XR805 did.

This site has made its choice and I am fully behind the choices that the moderators and the Admins made. I am not going to change the decision of this nor am i going to condone what XR805 did.

There was another thread that was removed as well that XR805 made that there was more trash being talked about. Not by XR805, but by Rob himself. I am not about to allow a posting war, flaming and insulting going on in this site. It is not going to be tollerated by the regular joe or by owners of company. I dont care who you are what you own or how much money you have. These types of posts will not be tolerated on here. I will remove them if i see them. These posts are totally uncalled for. Members will not be banned, but if they continue to do the posts that they are I will have no other choice but to remove them from this site. Slander, defamation, personal attacks or anything of the sort will never be tollerated on here.

If there are issues with my decisions or the decisions of the other admins and moderators on here for following the guidelines that i have set forth for the members to follow then you can email myself or PM myself on here. Or as you have chosen you can leave. I dont like the later choice, but again that is your choice. I wish you well in your ventures on the web as well as in you life. Thank you for your time on this site and best of luck to you. You are welcome on here at anytime.

John Oliver
Owner: FordForums.com

russellw

Well said John!

Just to further clarify the Australian Law in relation to defamation and libel - the common law definition of libel is as follows:

Defamation is the speaking or publication of words or other matter that is likely to injure a person's reputation in the eyes of ordinary people in the community.

and further ..

Defamatory material expressed in print, writing, or any other mode of communication capable of being comprehended visually.
(which the Rindos v Hardwick case in WA has defined as including this type of bulletin board).

Material is defamatory if it is:

* likely to injure a person's reputation
* likely to injure a person in his/her profession or trade or
* likely to induce others to shun or avoid or ridicule or despise the person.

Material is defamatory if the ordinary reasonable reader concludes that it is likely to lower the esteem in which a person is held.

Whilst there are a number of suitable defences to an action for defamation under Australian law it is clearly beyond the scope of the operators and moderators of this forum to apply the necessary tests, particularly when the law itself often has difficulty in adjudicating such actions.

Clearly the statements made pass the test for defamation as shown above and the actions taken in this instance have my absolute support.

I, like most citizens of free countries, support the principles of free speech but those principles also need to be tempered with reasonable tests of fairness in our dealing with other members of the community.

It is sad to think that there are people willing to withdraw their participation from these forums because of this situation. I would have thought that the fact that their opinions have been freely aired in this thread would go some way to convincing them that their opinions are valued.

HSE2

Well that is up to you. Anyone one wishing to find out the complete story on situations like this really need to speak to to the mod or admin involved.

The reason I took action last night was that the situation was out of control.

I wasn't involved with the original thread that was removed and I will only speak of my actions last night.

1 there was no Aust Mods online
2 Threads were being started to alert people to comments made by Rob. This is a big No no. Without going into the merit of such comments or the standards of customer relationships you don't do that. You report the problem to a mod or admin and they will deal with it.
3 The subject thread which is different to the thread that was delete was moved out of the public eye and is awaiting John and or DKs opinion before it is re displayed. They may choose to edit it they may send it back as is, but it was my opinion that comments were being made out of context because some people didn't know the full story. No one was banned. Make no mistake about it, what happened here was about a reaction from comments made by Mr Herrod to one of his customers. The story spread accross two threads but one was missing, so I moved the second one.

My sole problem last night was two issues.

One I felt the comments while not completely in line with PC, were out of context for people that didn't know the story.

The fact that people then wanted to start a separate thread for the sole point of alerting people to a standard of behaviour they didn't agree with. That is where the line was crossed.

I am saddened that people should feel this way and wish not to particpate any furhter with the site.

Falchoon

Just my $0.02 worth, why is there still a thread bagging out Julian Edgar and Autospeed? If he had a mind to couldn't he take FF to court for slander? Consistency is the key here I think.

__________________
You know, somebody actually complimented me on my driving today. They left a little note on the windscreen. It said, 'Parking Fine.'So that was nice.

____o00o_=^..^=_o00o____

laminge

Correct me if I am wrong.,

But isnt the point that

1) Edgar has bagged tickford on his own forum, he has made statements public before towards Ford.

2) Its a discussion on comments he posted based on what he has written


rather than

1) An angry post where the poster hasnt contacted the service provider of that issue

russellw

No Falchoon - the comments made do not pass the test required for defamation or libel.
You can make "fair commentary" on any published material and this commentary can include remarks about the author (one of the joys of being a journalist).

Likewise a comment posted in these threads can be critiqued and such criticism can (legally) include remarks about the author. It is up to the mods then to determine if such commentary is acceptable within the confines of the TOA.

Falchoon

As John pointed out in an earlier post FF is not related in any way to Ford or Tickford. If the comments are defamatory to them let them deal with it.

Fair comment, but there were still several defamatory comments about Edgar.

Look, I agree with most of the comments about Edgar but that's not the point. I am just pointing out the double standards of deleting one thread/post because is defamatory but leaving another that is effectively the same. Read RussellW's post about the Australian Law in relation to defamation and libel.

__________________
You know, somebody actually complimented me on my driving today. They left a little note on the windscreen. It said, 'Parking Fine.'So that was nice.

____o00o_=^..^=_o00o____

HSE2

from where I stand I see no consistency issue in this case.

The Julian thread did get off track, but it certainly was no worse than autospeeds own site and his own correspondence to opinions he held. Everyone has a right to their opinion and are free to express it but you have to make an attempt to expalin yourself. In this case the topic could be potentially damaging to the income and the capacity of people to earn a living. In the first place not enough facts were made to back up the initial claim.

Back to the topic at hand. The thread or opening statement re this situation appeared to be factless. He was given the opportunity to explain. A day later the topic appeared in a thread and Rob reacted in a manner that wasn't to everyones liking. If you notice you won't find that thread. Both sides have been dealt with here, so it isn't one rule for some another for others.
People pointed out a situation that they weren't happy with and we are dealing with it. How is that not looking after people interest in the site??. We don't need a complete thread to remind us that the situation isn't what you would like.

Now IMO and I have expressed it to the people who run this site that while comments might not be PC, they are no worse that what we pass off everyday as Aussie. Being called a dickhead or worse is an everyday occurence for the working class aussie. And no that word wasn't used just an example.
In my opinion people were overreacting to the situatuion which in turn was made in frustration at serious alligations being made against him.

What every happened to talking about such situations. Where was this concept lost???

Falchoon

So what you are saying because Autospeed/Edgar bag people out on the internet forum it is OK for us to do it? Aren't these remarks made about Edgar "be potentially damaging to the income and the capacity of people to earn a living"? He is a journalist and presumably gets paid to write these articles.

It's not about what I like or dislike. I have never met Julian Edgar or ever had any dealings with him. I don't read Autospeed because it seems to mainly concentrate on 4cyl cars where as I prefer V8s. Same goes for Herrod. I have never dealt with them and probably never will as they are 800km or so away from where I live. I'm sure they have great products and for the most part seem to give good service.

I have no issue with words like dickhead being used (in context) and IMO PC sux big time. I guess it is only natural for Rob Herrod to get his back up over allegations of being a rip-off, I guess it was just an overeaction by both parties concerned. The guy that had the initial problem should have contacted Herrod and sorted it out direct. He should of known anyhow that he was unlikely to get much support from other FF members as a good number of them are happy Herrod customers already.

This is my last word on all of this (thank God he says!), back to talking about Fords!

__________________
You know, somebody actually complimented me on my driving today. They left a little note on the windscreen. It said, 'Parking Fine.'So that was nice.

____o00o_=^..^=_o00o____

HSE2

No I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that comments directed to Julian and his article are clear to be seen and understood for what they are. There are no misconceptions about thre subject topic and he responded in such. In this case the comments were a veil and not specific. Ample opportunity was given to explain and that wasn't acted upon.

And again. Thread was moved because of comments made by ROB that people took offence to. Subsequent references to a thread that wasn't accessable were deleted or editied because people would not have been able to view the link. And again in case people don't get the message, you report such issue to mods and don't start your own thread topics for the purposes of reporting.