Thread split off from An Appology

Well i gotta say that is one of the most comprehensive back pedals in history. Whilst I understand what you have said Ben and do not wish to ruin the spirit in which it has been said I cannot help but feel your words were spoken at gunpoint.
I will agree that some of your posts could have done with a little more forethought but there are plenty of us that are guilty of that sin (not me though... pffft :s5).
These forums are a pretty good spot to have your say and find out the opinions of others and the news getting around the traps. One of the things that I find a little disturbing though is the intrusiveness in regard to some topics of conversation. As you may have expected I am going to say illegal street racing and some of the "hoon" activities that go on about the place.
The management of the forums quite rightly have an obligation to protect themselves from any form of litigation that could be brought upon them from some fool doing something silly and then saying "the evil Ford Forum people made me do it". On the other hand though I feel that the management should encourage discussions regarding public safety and some of the community issues around us. One of these is most certainly illegal forms of motorsport on our public streets and a lack of facilities nationwide to cater for this still booming hobby. How about the penalties for being caught and how they relate to other driving penalties. If you get caught drink driving you have to attend drink driving courses. If you get caught racing/burnouts you lose your car. Fair, I dont think so. Any courses or public education? No.
If we look back through history we will find that post mortems were once illegal and against the church. We of the 21st century know that post mortems are an invaluable training and research tool. If Doctors and other researchers had bowed to the government/church of the time then where would we be today? They didnt though and they persisted until the practice was made legal. Bit heavy but i am trying to make a point... you'll see.
Alcohol was once illegal in the ole US of A. Some would agree that it was probably a good idea (not me). The only way that this law was eventually turned around was through public pressure and the fact that everybody still did it anyway. On the same note Aussie pubs used to have extremely strict operating hours. These laws were only changed through public pressure and awareness forcing pollies to have a rethink.
Stem cell research is illegal. Why? Cloning or some such crap. If Doctors can use this technology to cure genetic diseases like parkinsons disease and Diabetes then why the hell cant they do what they need to do? If this research allows them to grow you a new kidney with your own DNA instead of you waiting on a list for years and then having to take drugs the whole rest of your life then I feel they should go for it.
You guys may be a little lost here but I am finally going to make my obvious point... finally. If every time a controversial subject comes up we allow it to be swept under the carpet instead of aired in a public forum then where does that leave us? You have to stand up for what you beleive in or you will get nothing.
The greatest joke in Australia at the moment is the laws concerning peoples conduct in a motor vehicle. The speeding fines and tolerance levels are a joke. If we were to stand together we could do something but we are all too disorganised to do anything so we let the respective Governments bow us down and give it to us. Speeding is just as illegal as street racing....I have yet to see a post about getting caught speeding or how nasty the police are for their speed cameras get banned or told to not post about that subject. It is a double standard and it should change.
Let me put this another way.... if your son/daughter etc was killed by illegal racers do you think it is better to never talk about it so as not to promote the practice OR do you think it is better to make as much noise as possible and get the clowns of the roads and onto a track? It was illegal before... what can the police do? Make it more illegal??
This has been a long post I know (it's a talent!!) and i know may seem a little of the mark but what I am trying to point out is that i feel we should be allowed to talk about these subjects in an ADULT and RELEVANT fashion so that maybe some people get the idea that it isn't only 17 year old kids who are interested in motorsport. How foolish does it seem that Ford can sponsor an AFL team yet cannot find any money for local entry level motorsport. Drag racing is easily the most heavily participated in motor sport in the country but when have you ever seen the Ford XR8 Drag Night.. or even the Holden SS range Nationals? How do we let these people realise how interested we are in these topics and what relates to them if we cannot discuss them on OUR Ford site? Lets face guys... this site (as good as it is) is nothing without the people who visit it is it?
To conclude (is that applause??) my point is we need to be allowed to discuss these topics where major players like Ford/Holden/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Politicians can see what it is that makes us tick and what concerns/interests us.
If some of these topics are a bit touchy feely well that is what our fine moderators are for isnt it?
It has taken a big heart for Fonz to make his apology and I dont know what he said to raise the ire of the sites administrators but I daresay it was probably rightly so, but if he, along with the rest of us, can structure his posts in a mature fashion, as in his apology, I do not see why some of the seemingly borderline topics cannot be discussed in an open forum. Maybe we can all stand to benefit from the opinions and insight of our peers.

MOTORISTS UNITE NOW BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or is it already??

[xacoupe]

V8 Ford Power... I think the problem is with bragging about illegal street racing and stupid speeds.. no one denies that it happens but I feel that most people here are mature enough to realise that it is illegal and dangerous (regardless of the reasons for it ) and that bragging about it just detracts from the general feel of the forum.. IMO anyway. Discussins on these subjects historically never got any further than What is Your Top Speed?? ( I have been guilty too ..)
There also seems to be a lot of people having a go at the mods/admins about their judgement calls... this plain sucks.. I don't always agree with the calls made but I do realise that it is a moderated site and not everyone can be happy 100% of the time.. Some very thin skinned people have done a dummy spit and gone because they couldn't come to grips with the basic fact that the moderators can and do ...moderate.
Having said all that...

welcome back Fonz!

[FM]

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
Well i gotta say that is one of the most comprehensive back pedals in history. Whilst I understand what you have said Ben and do not wish to ruin the spirit in which it has been said I cannot help but feel your words were spoken at gunpoint.

You have got to be kidding. I'm sorry but I cannot stand by while the last sentence in this paragraph goes to the keeper with out a bit said about it.
No-one is held at gunpoint on these forums & if you want to suggest as much then I'll be more than happy to take you on in an open forum to disprove your point.

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
One of the things that I find a little disturbing though is the intrusiveness in regard to some topics of conversation.

Such as? You make mention of street racing & such, but last time I checked these things were ILLEGAL and dangerous to the general public as well as the participants.

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
The management of the forums quite rightly have an obligation to protect themselves from any form of litigation that could be brought upon them from some fool doing something silly and then saying "the evil Ford Forum people made me do it".

The most intelligent part of your post... I'll give you that...

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
On the other hand though I feel that the management should encourage discussions regarding public safety and some of the community issues around us.

Once again... you have got to be kidding..

What more can we do to encourage topical conversation like what you have mentioned? Last time I checked any topic that was remotely like this was left well alone so that people could have their say & get their point across. God forbid if the members of fordforums can't have their say then I, as a forum director will resign on the spot in disgust.

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
You guys may be a little lost here but I am finally going to make my obvious point... finally.

Thank christ.. I was wondering where the hell you were going with all this..

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
If every time a controversial subject comes up we allow it to be swept under the carpet instead of aired in a public forum then where does that leave us?

It leaves us no-where.. See my comments above for free & open speech on FordForums..

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
The greatest joke in Australia at the moment is the laws concerning peoples conduct in a motor vehicle. The speeding fines and tolerance levels are a joke.

Can't agree with you more. The draconian laws regarding speeding & the road toll in this country are a dead set joke.

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
I have yet to see a post about getting caught speeding or how nasty the police are for their speed cameras get banned or told to not post about that subject. It is a double standard and it should change.

Double standard? From whom? You want free & open speech about all things motoring yet you mention that you are yet to see a post about speeding or speed cameras be banned. Whats your point? Please tell us so we know what the hell your on about.

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
This has been a long post I know (it's a talent!!) and i know may seem a little of the mark but what I am trying to point out is that i feel we should be allowed to talk about these subjects in an ADULT and RELEVANT fashion so that maybe some people get the idea that it isn't only 17 year old kids who are interested in motorsport.

1. It's not talent.. it's called conversation.
2. WHERE ARE YOU NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT SUCH PRACTICES IN AN ADULT AND RELEVANT FASHION??? FFS you can't piss me off more when you say shyte like this.
This is an open forum for christs sake. If you have a topic you want to talk about.. TALK ABOUT IT! Stop bloody whinging and bloody talk about it!!!

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
my point is we need to be allowed to discuss these topics where major players like Ford/Holden/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Politicians can see what it is that makes us tick and what concerns/interests us.
If some of these topics are a bit touchy feely well that is what our fine moderators are for isnt it?

See Above Comments!!!!

Tell me where you CAN'T talk about this stuff? Jeebus!!!!

Originally posted by [V8]Ford Power
It has taken a big heart for Fonz to make his apology and I dont know what he said to raise the ire of the sites administrators but I daresay it was probably rightly so, but if he, along with the rest of us, can structure his posts in a mature fashion, as in his apology, I do not see why some of the seemingly borderline topics cannot be discussed in an open forum. Maybe we can all stand to benefit from the opinions and insight of our peers.

OK... So far you have repeated yourself three times from my count. You you like to make your point again just incase we missed it?
So... I'll make MY point again. If you want to talk about topics such as this. TALK ABOUT THEM! We are not going to stop members from talking about "Touchy Feely" topics because they might offend some people. This is an open forum for conversation about topics EXACTLY like these ones.

Speak freely for Gods sake.. if not your own!

[LunaticSVT]

OK these above posts were removed from the Appology thread since they were not in direct response to the initial thread. As part of the policy here of non Hi-jacking of threads I have split it instead of deleting this.

This is done so that the responses can be heard and that the original thread can remain intact as it should.

John

[russellw]

Some Clarification

Let me start by saying that this post represents my opinions as an individual and not necessarily those of the other mods / admins or the ownership.

I can well understand the level of frustration that is being experienced here by FM, DK, LunaticSS, Laminge, Mr Sparkles et al.
The time consumed in reading 500-600 posts a day (the current activity level) is quite substantial and it is time that is given freely to ensure that these forums are a pleasant place for people to visit.
This group of people represent a broad cross section of age and life experience and therefore bring differing viewpoints that are indicative of societal standards as a whole. Regular contact is maintained between them to ensure that (as far as possible) personal prejudices (we all have them) and "bad" days do not have a negative impact on consistent moderation. Like any system it is not perfect but it does largely ensure fairness.

Having said that, I can also understand how some people may find it difficult to know where the boundaries are in terms of acceptable posting. I know we have often referred to the sign-up terms and conditions but I also acknowledge that very few people have probably read them before clicking the accept button.

So here are the things I have (and will continue) to moderate - it is by no means a comprehensive list and I am sure the other (more experienced) mods and admins will be able to add to it.

1. Posts that contain references to individuals by name when there is no opportunity for those individulas to rebut the comments made - or where these references are likely to be deemed libellous or slanderous.

2. Posts on topics that condone illegal and / or dangerous activities - this does not limit debate on these subjects as this is healthy but it does not allow for senseless bragging about these activities.

3. Posts that are critical of the running of the Forums if these posts are "flaming" in nature. I certainly support the rights of individuals to raise issues about moderation when it is appropriate to do so as long as it is sensible debate.

4. Posts that are excessively insulting to other members of the forum - I know this is a judgement call but that's what experience is for.

5. Posts that breach the site terms and conditions.

6. Posts that are wildly off topic in a particular thread (these will normally be moved).

7. Posts that are just plain stupid - another judgement call I know.

This is by no means a comprehensive list but let me conclude by reiterating the comments I have made in the past.

These Forums are moderated. I happen to like this fact and those who don't like it can exercise their democratic right not to come here. Those who do choose to stay should show everyone the same courtesy and consideration they would expect to receive themselves. This is just basic human decency and I will defend any individuals right to be treated in this manner.
In a sense this forum is a microcosm of our society and contains examples of all the things that are both good and bad within the community at large. This is as it should be and we have to be mindful of this fact. Not everyone possesses the same experiences or the same level of articulation but their opinions are valuable regardless - provided they are within the guidelines of course.

In the final analysis we are all here because we share a passion and enthusiasm for Fords (or cars in general). Let us try not to lose sight of that fact amongst the petty squabbles that appear from time to time.

Cheers
Russ

[kinobi]

maybe you guys should assign another one or two moderators if your worried about the current workload.

[xacoupe]

Originally posted by kinobi
maybe you guys should assign another one or two moderators if your worried about the current workload.

you don't want to make me a mod .. I would take far less crap than these guys!!!:s6:

[FordLover]

if your son/daughter etc was killed by illegal racers

Well it isnt my son or daughter but my dad's workmate who i know verywell was hit by illegal street racers on his motobike. he is now in hospital in intensive care. he has so many problems now no knee cap, broken ribs, internal injuries just to name a few of his injuries these arent the worst of his injuries either. how did it happen? well from what ive been told he was coming around a corner and two car's were racing one on the wrong side of the road and he was hit on his triumph motobike thrown into a tree and then to the ground, how do we know they were street racing the driver of the car that hit him called the ambulance and when they got there he said that he (the driver of the car) was racing and then he left.

now just hearing about this is enough to make me never street race. on a track yes but never on the street.

[LunaticSVT]

Originally posted by kinobi
maybe you guys should assign another one or two moderators if your worried about the current workload.

I really do not see it as a workload issue here.
We have one owner..myself, we have 1 admins DK, 2 Forums Directors FM and Laminge and 2 mods RussellW and Mr Sparkles

There are 6 different view points and 6 different emotional levels that are being addressed with all of us. As RussellW stated...we gather and discuss things happening on the site and in these areas. We look over what others are doing to make sure we are not overly anal or overly sadistic. We work together to better the place. We have our times and everyone does....no one is perfect.

Assigning more mods would not accomplish much in the regards to what is being discussed here.

FM - have I or have I not been told to not talk about illegal drag racing and/or speeding because it may be seen as Ford Forums condoning these practices? Yes I have... I think you were even one of the people involved. Now you are saying it is okay to talk about this stuff?? If the standpoint on these issues has changed without my knowledge then I apologise and will freely admit this is all my bad.
Furthermore, FM, are you going to try and tell me that the Fonz came out with his apology for no reason at all just that he felt like it or was he under some duress. By duress i mean "apologise and change your ways or you will be excluded from Ford Forums". What he exactly said or did I still in all honesty do not know.

The whole point of the post FM, which you seem to have missed in your eagerness to quote me out of context and write in a huge font as though we are all as dense as those who need to resort to the use of huge fonts, is that the only way change is brought about is through public pressure. The double standard I refer to is that speeding/speeding ticket threads never seem to be discouraged yet that practice is supposedly the most dangerous thing you can do in a car according to the authorities. Lets compare mortality figures for speeding versus illegal drag racing and burnouts. It just seemed to me that in the past a thread is much more likely to stay if it interests the moderators rather than whether or not it is entirely appropriate.
As per usual though FM you seem to be able to manage to pick the eyes out of my post yet not answer any questions or even give a rational point of view. From all the times I repeated myself you still did not seem to grasp some of the fundamental points of my post.
In short - if we cannot talk about commonly practiced illegal activies (even if they are dangerous) how do we get them fixed? You now say we can but as I said I have been asked/told not to.

Why do Ford/Holden/Mitsu and Toyota not seem to give a toss about these community issues and maybe put up some money?

Personally though FM I find your efforts to quote parts of my post out of context and bag me over it as pretty weak. At least RussellW and LunaticSS are professional enough to keep things civil without having to talk down to someone as though they are beneath you. I mean for you to tell me one thing a few months ago and then say the complete opposite in a later post is pretty lame. As for debating with you in an open forum... if you cannot even remember previous discussions you have had with people about a given subject then I see no point in debating you.

I do apologise for hijacking Fonzs thread.... it was not intentional although I do admit upon reflection that that is what happened.

Fordlover- noone wants to hear of people being injured...period. The whole point of what I am saying is that we ALL would rather be racing on a track... but we have no track, no money, no representation and a lot of people who would rather bicker than stand together.
The general attitude of lawmakers in regard to road users is the same across the board whether it is mobile phone use, speeding or burnouts. The policy makers seem to have this attitude that we are children who need to be told as much if not in so many words.

Q. How do we talk about illegal gatherings that have happened without glorifying them or in such a manner that does not seem to condone them?