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Old 08-30-2004, 06:46   #1 (permalink)
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Turbo Calais for VE?

Rumors are poping up that VE may see AWD and Turbo optional on the Calais.

While holden and to a greater extent HSV have said they don't want a Turbo, a Calais Turbo would appeal to buyers in that segment. Avalible with the 5 speed auto or optional Six speed manual would make a tastey package. It would also give Holden a market which Ford seems happy to not claim with steadfast refuseals to make any sort of Turbo Ghia. The sheer thought of it disgusting them.

Turbo Calais might also attempt to steal XR6T customers away, if they price it right, it would be pretty close to XR6T optioned up pricing, but include proper power seats, proper leather, sleeper yet classy looks and feel, stability systems etc. Why buy a XT with a sports pack when you can get a Calais with a turbo engine? That kind of argument..

AWD is the same sort of deal, attracting new customers, who might have been turned off at a shonky low tech oversteering olden holden. With AWD and its stability programs, LSD, big tyres, it would be pretty hard to get it out of shape. Again the 5 speed auto is avalible for AWD and Calais has the 5 speed already, all the AWD gear is avalible from the V6 adventra, meaning minimal additional costs.

Makes you wonder if they might try both in the same car.. AWD turbo Calais.
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Old 08-30-2004, 07:00   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPhido
Why buy a XT with a sports pack when you can get a Calais with a turbo engine?


Why buy a Calais when you can get a Merc E55 AMG?

Oh yeh, the price difference, that's why!!
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Old 08-30-2004, 17:47   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Why buy any commie without the Gen 3?
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Old 08-30-2004, 18:04   #4 (permalink)
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roll Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

I would love to see ford release a ghia turbo. Even just a limited run. They don't think its a good idea but everyone else thinks its fantastic.
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Old 08-30-2004, 19:09   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Quote:
Why buy a Calais when you can get a Merc E55 AMG?Oh yeh, the price difference, that's why!!
Err, yeh, anyway, a XR6T with luxury pack, rear parking sensors, etc etc is pretty much Ghia price. But its not a Ghia. Its a XR, which is based of a XT. Also all those options are nearly worthless at resale time. So say good by to the extra $10k you paid getting them in.

If your spending $50+k on a turbo, why not get Turbo calais instead for a little more. They are in the same price group. Enjoy your more comfy leather seats, 8 way power, with 3 position memory, centre rear armrest, more than 2 cup holders (for a 5 seating car!), proper interior lighting etc etc etc. You can negoitate on dealer stock, and don't have to wait 8 months for you optioned up XR to be built, if at all, in with the same colour you origionally chose for it. Then you have to pray your dealer actually put in the right options and you don't have anything missing like premium audio which will never be able to be put in outside of the factory, your 8 months of waiting is completely wasted. Also not everyone wants a car in eye searing yellow or pull me over orange.

For the 50k price you can get a fairly newish 2nd hand V8 E series merc. Or a older 540 bmw. They also come with stability programs (XR doesn't), full power seats (XR doesnt), vented discs all round (XR doesn't), and rock solid resale (XR doesn't). They also draw less police attention (XR certainly don't), less boss/fleet manager/wife convincing (XR doesn't), less theft attention (XR don't), decent 5 speed auto (XR doesn't) etc etc..
Quote:
Why buy any commie without the Gen 3?
Why not just buy the V8 Holden?
-Stability programs (maybe get them with LS2, maybe, could be US based stability systems)
-lack of low down torque
-oil consumption (will it return?)
-the idea of buying a 5.7 or 6.0L engine with high fuel prices
-crappy auto (clunker to the max)
-Its american made.. Why not buy aussie?
-V8 reputation (hey der, me engines got dem pushrods, watch cha me doz a burns out)
-handling
-Something diffrent, if the turbo was only avalible on the Calais, that would make it pretty special.
-Some people just perfer six's to eights.. much like some people perfer eights to sixes.
-Some packages would allow a supercharged V6, but not a V8. So some would allow a turbo 6, but not a V8..

Why would anyone buy a XR6T when there is a XR8 with even more power!?

Fairmont Ghia Turbo for much the same reasons. The 5.4L SOHC is a weak engine, revs finish up at ~5000 rpm. 3 Valves per cylinder, single VCT, huge fuel consumption, huged additional weight, doesn't go much harder than the basic six, seconds off the turbo and XR8.. It might as well be a pushrod windsor with AU 220Kw engine spec.If the Falcon ever gets the bosch 8.0 system, the V8's like holden might be the last to get it.

But we know Ford is never ever going to put the Turbo engine into anything except a XR and a FPV. The very idea lables you insane, some sort of sicophant that gets his jollies from cross breeding very animals. It wants to keep the Ghia the stripper model, with nothing special in it, with less technology, less spirit, and anything that may attract more youthful buyers, or buyers from european brands. Bland and barrier are the key words to describe the Ghia. No sir, we certainly can't put that engine into your car! You would no doubt kill yourself, because your so stupid, not to mention undermine our more important XR customers, infact I'm going to call the hospital and have you commited.

If Ghia buyers want something that they don't want to fall asleep in, then they should get themselves a baseball cap, put it on backwards, buy some trendy suburban street wear, and purchase a XR and live with everyone challenging them off the lights and claiming them as suffering a mid-life crisis due to some insecurity. Or simply buy from another brand.. Oh, Calais turbo... Yeh, that sounds nice. Or a turbo audi, or a turbo saab, or a turbo bloody volvo etc etc..
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Old 08-30-2004, 20:07   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

In regards to the new 8's petrol consumption, it does have DOD so the fuel bill shouldn't be an issue.

I could have sworn GM said Holden was not to use the turbo motor because of the other companies using it.

John Crennan said no to it also.

Calais turbo - so what - I think Ford would do what it needs to keep Holden at second in this segment.
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Old 08-30-2004, 20:39   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Just remember that Ford is the one who has the turbo engine, not Holden, so anything can happen. 18 months ago many doubted FPV would do a turbo car, however the HSV killing F6 Typhoon is only months away. And with 550 nm of torque and probably more than the claimed 270 kW, it will be a ripper with a price to match. Now it really is game over for Holden!
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Old 08-30-2004, 21:28   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Holden do make turbo engines, they are destined for Saab, possibly alfa as well. I actually agree with Holden the turbo V6 doesn't make sense for a across the range car. V8's fill it nicely. But for premium luxury cars, espically shortwheel base ones, turbo six offers something diffrent.

I doubt the Epislon cars from Saab, Alfa, caddilac, Opel will even be sold here, they would be fighting against the Commodore. So a V6 turbo Calais (and Calais only) would fill the niche those cars would in other markets.

Quote:
Calais turbo - so what - I think Ford would do what it needs to keep Holden at second in this segment
Last I heard Ford was being out sold in the segment by ~700% (atleast in Statesman/Caprice, I would expect it to be a tad closer with Calais/Ghia but not a great deal). Ford is outpowered, out geared, is behind in techonology, behind in luxury, behind in features.

It may be a attempt by holden to deflate the Typhoon launch, which we have known the details about for ~12 months. Typhoon is still XR/XT on the inside tho. Power isn't everything. Sure its important, but its not everything. Typhoon looks like having a short time at the top tho, with 295 kw 6.0L SV8's popping up in 12 months or so.
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Old 08-30-2004, 22:16   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPhido


Last I heard Ford was being out sold in the segment by ~700% (atleast in Statesman/Caprice, I would expect it to be a tad closer with Calais/Ghia but not a great deal). Ford is outpowered, out geared, is behind in techonology, behind in luxury, behind in features.

.
Behind in technology? With a "high tech Pushrod" i presume that holden are waaay in front with technology, Ford are getting the new gearbox's in the next design change arn't they? And as for out powered, they are almost equal in power, just that ford weighs more, another place they are supposed to be changing - they are going to be 50+kg lighter next series.
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Old 08-30-2004, 23:41   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Calais for VE?

I don't see pushrods on the V6.. I see pushrods on a bloody big V8 from the corrvette, its a six litre engine in LS2 form possible more in HSV tune. If Ford, merc, BMW starting dropping 6 or 7 litre engines into 1550kg sedans then yeh, you could argue that pushrods are fine and dandy given modern designs and management. Thats getting displacement on demand, something I doubt Ford will ever get on its engines.

Holden has the new gearboxes today, ESP today, CBC today, EBA today. Well almost today, I belive VZ have already started showing up at dealerships.

As for out powered, well the commodore has more power and is lighter and has a extra ratio, Calais V6 has 8 more kw, V8 has 15 more kw, the V8 statesman has a 25 more kw, the Caprice 30Kw more than a 220Kw Ford. Caprice has front parking sensors, twin dvd screens, standard. LTD its not even a option. Again for stability systems.

Quote:
Ford are getting the new gearbox's in the next design change arn't they?
Well its not in Mk II. It may arrive in the design after that, maybe, for some models, perhaps, as a option. So lets say its ~25 months away for what looks like only some models. Thats a pretty long way away.

Arguing that there is no problem, that in 2 or 3 years, Ford too will get a new gearbox sounds like a pretty weak argument. Its not like the current 4 speed is awesome, its got bad ratios, its not that reliable, it can't even be used on all the engines Ford has (typhoon). Thats pretty bad, there was a long delay for them on the XR8's too. When models have to come out manual only because the auto gearbox isn't up to it.

And then we are into the realm of what if, yeh, maybe it gets new gearboxes, is 100kg lighter, gets 500 Hp, 70mpg, 8 speed gearboxes and costs less than a Matiz. Sure its vaugely possible, but theres no evidence to support it.

I would have thought for sure Ford would have added stability programming to the Falcon for mkII, its been in the territory for what, 6-8 months? They use the same engine, has plenty of experience with it, knew that Holden was going to use it as well, would not add to the cost of the cars greatly either, not cost alot to develop it. Yet, Mk II is announced, no stability control..

If ford can't even include something that simple, licenced it, they even helped develop it, into a update, I now doubt the ability of them to do anything. While some argue they ran out of money, we aren't talking billions, we are talking of the order of a few million, max, and the cost could be directly transfered to models with it. I know no ones made a big deal out of it, but not offering stability controls is like not offering airbags or seatbelts. It should be essential safety equipment on ~$50k cars.

That same thinking might delay the arrival of a new gearbox by years, make the new platform worse than the old one, etc etc.
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