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Old 06-25-2004, 01:36   #1 (permalink)
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V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

I have a dream. Its the dream of building a V12 off the Barra I6 engine design using as many common parts as possible.

At first I thought highly unrealistic dream. Maybe not so.. I've been looking at a few bits of information and other people who have made custom engine blocks.

Example HERE!! Where they made a alloy version of the Austin Healey inline six engine. Looks wonderful. Given the price of the head, surely very expensive for a pushrod six.

However, to reduce costs, we can use the standard falcon head on atleast one bank of the V12. Perhaps it would be possible to get Ford to mirror the Falcon I6 head, for the other bank, or modify the head, bolt it on backward or simularly adapt it.

I like the idea of a 8.0L Quad Over Head Cam, Quad Varible valve timing, 48 valve, alloy block and head V12, suitable for easy installation into a fairly lowcost platform like the Falcon and suitable for other project cars (lets see various exotic replicas, drag and track cars, etc).

Even a very low cost version using factory parts everywhere would put out in excess of 364Kw @ 5000 rpm, 760Nm @ 3250. Using a unique ECU, higher compression, good exaust, better intake, it should be reasonably possible to lift power and torque to ~480Kw/800Nm with good fuel economy and driveability and excellent emissions. The possibilities are mind blowing..

Although most likely impossible to fit turbos to, a nice fat supercharger would be great. Harking back to WWII fighter craft engines, that ran a large capacity supercharged V12.

Anyhow.. Back to the project, does anyone have a nice set of dimentions for the Barra I6 (block and head) and maybe some picies..
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:17   #2 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

I love the idea, but not the feeling when you try to turn a corner for the first time!

The weight from two blocks over the front axle would be enourmous!
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:35   #3 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

after reading that austin healy web site, they make it sound all so easy, would it be quicker and easier though to take the V8 copy it and replicate a further 2 cylinders, extend the heads etc.
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:50   #4 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

why would they bother when there is a GTHO mule with a V10 out there ?? hehehe
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:51   #5 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by docjames
I love the idea, but not the feeling when you try to turn a corner for the first time!

The weight from two blocks over the front axle would be enourmous!

simple solution, mount it over the rear axle, lambo style :)

i like the idea too, thought about whether it was possible with the old crossflow, or the landcruiser 2f... i like torque
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Old 06-25-2004, 02:51   #6 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

Wouldnt it be a flat 12 because the barra engine isnt really on a slant is it?
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:16   #7 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

let me explain a bit further..

Custom made block. looks like a V8 block, but two banks of six cylinders (not two banks of 4 like a V8), at a 60 degree(or 90 or 180 if you want) angle. Block is alloy..

You use the standard, avalible today falcon I6 head (24 valve, VCT etc) for one bank, and find some way of getting another one for the other bank. I suppose it would be possible to run another standard Barra head for the other bank, but then you would have problems with exaust in the V vally next to the other heads air intake.. Yuck... You could bolt the other head back the front so both run exaust on the outside of the block, but then you have to be a bit tricky and you have less space.

You could also shorten the stroke and deck the block to provide diffrent capacities (such as 6.0L, short stroke, compact, hi reving V12).

Concidering the effort of making a custom block I would say you would dry sump it so you can lower the whole lot a bit lower in the engine bay, lowering CG, better lubrication etc..

The reason why I choose the Barra I6 is:
- No one else has done it
- 8.0L is a huge capacity! The I6 are pretty torquey, imagine twice the torque
- The I6 fits in the engine bay, the long stroke 90 degree V8 fits, thus a 60 degree V12 should fit
- You can use 1 production I6 head, already made you just bolt it on.
- Mirroring for the other head is much easier than completely redesigning it, trying to find cams to fit it etc..
- LTD with a 8.0L V12 would be a awesome luxury car.
- A Falcon with a 8.0L V12 would be a awesome performance GT car
- A 2 door falcon with a 8.0L V12 would also be really nice


Using cartest with falcon dimentions, even with the slacker engine of 364Kw and 760Nm it would dispatch the quarter in 12.6 seconds! With a Hi-Po V12, the 100 comes in 3.6, quarter in 11.8 and top out at just under 340Kmph..

You could imagine this engine in something like the JOSS.. If it could propel a full falcon over the quarter in sub 12's, a 800-900Kg supercar would be Mclaren F1 beating.

Even funnier, put it in a RWD territory..
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:38   #8 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

I get it better now.

So whats the delay? Get cracking!
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:39   #9 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

It's unlikely that Ford would take on the idea however if you want to mess with a V12 in your Ford you could find a smashed BMW 750 and transfer all the bits across.

The new 6.0l engine has the following specs.

The latest 7 Series models with V-12 power are the 760. This DOHC engine has 322.4 Kw / 438.00 BHP @ 6000.00 RPM with torque of Nm / 444.00 Ft-lbs @ 3950.00 RPM.

Note that BMW specs are usually under rated.

Regards Prof Rabbit


Quote:
Originally Posted by IPhido
I have a dream. Its the dream of building a V12 off the Barra I6 engine design using as many common parts as possible.

At first I thought highly unrealistic dream. Maybe not so.. I've been looking at a few bits of information and other people who have made custom engine blocks.

Example HERE!! Where they made a alloy version of the Austin Healey inline six engine. Looks wonderful. Given the price of the head, surely very expensive for a pushrod six.

However, to reduce costs, we can use the standard falcon head on atleast one bank of the V12. Perhaps it would be possible to get Ford to mirror the Falcon I6 head, for the other bank, or modify the head, bolt it on backward or simularly adapt it.

I like the idea of a 8.0L Quad Over Head Cam, Quad Varible valve timing, 48 valve, alloy block and head V12, suitable for easy installation into a fairly lowcost platform like the Falcon and suitable for other project cars (lets see various exotic replicas, drag and track cars, etc).

Even a very low cost version using factory parts everywhere would put out in excess of 364Kw @ 5000 rpm, 760Nm @ 3250. Using a unique ECU, higher compression, good exaust, better intake, it should be reasonably possible to lift power and torque to ~480Kw/800Nm with good fuel economy and driveability and excellent emissions. The possibilities are mind blowing..

Although most likely impossible to fit turbos to, a nice fat supercharger would be great. Harking back to WWII fighter craft engines, that ran a large capacity supercharged V12.

Anyhow.. Back to the project, does anyone have a nice set of dimentions for the Barra I6 (block and head) and maybe some picies..
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Old 06-25-2004, 05:44   #10 (permalink)
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Re: V12 Falcon. Could it be done.

I have concidered a smashed BMW 7 series.. or merc, but it is still a fairly expensive path to head down, although much cheaper than casting your own V12 (for a single example). I've also conciderd Jaguar V12 engines. If you try to source a engine new from BMW or Merc, they charge silly prices, like $100,000..

If you did make your own V12, you could sort of setup a brabus like workshop. Falcon is basically bespoke to 99% of the worlds population. With a bit of exterior reskinning (pumped guards, slightly diffrent front, carbon fiber bits for light weight) a new engine, gearbox, diff, tailshaft, drive shafts, suspension, brakes alloy suspension components, new interior.. You could make a extremely interesting vechical for overseas markets. As good as the germans (and italian) are, not everyone goes for that particular style.

While 2 door supercars abound from almost every hole in the ground, there aren't actually that many 4 door supercars, a much less crowded market.

Also I wonder how much it would actually cost you to make a alloy V12 block plus one mirrored I6 head. I would imagine if you could do it around $30,000 you could do a brisk trade putting them into otherwise fairly standard falcons.

Fairlane/Fairmont Ghia + $30k V12 engine = sub $100k (kinda) luxury car. Nearly 400Kw and 800Nm of torque..

I would imagine you would have a market for atleast 25 blocks a year, could be a fair bit more.

I would imagine entering such a engined car into various racing classes would cause a bit of sensation... Provided you could get it through the regs..
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