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V8 Supercars - the Future?

4K views 16 replies 13 participants last post by  Jase 
#1 ·
Let me start by saying that I am an avid fan of Nascar racing. As a silhouette formula it has usually managed to maintain close and entertaining racing and the series management have always addressed parity issues quickly.

In many ways our own series is mirroring the Nascar look and feel:

V8 Supercars = Winston Cup
Konica = Busch Series
V8 Brutes = Craftsmen Trucks.

... and the vehicles (certainly in the first two) are moving closer and closer to being a true silhouette formula.

Now I am largely of the view that as long as we get the parity equation right this is not a bad thing. The Nascar series is massively successful in all 3 categories. Last weekend at Bristol saw 147,000 people for the Busch race on the Friday night and 172,000 for the Winston Cup race. Probably helps explain why the prize pool for most races now exceeds $3m real dollars in Winston Cup, >$1m for Busch and even $0.5m for a Craftsmen truck race. The total attendance last year over the 34 races of the Winston Cup series was more than the entire population of this country.

One of the things that separates the Nascar formula from almost any other race series is that qualifying position is irrelevant (apart from the money and bonus points) because you can win a race from anywhere. It is a startling contrast to our series where it is almost impossible to win from anywhere other than the first few rows. When you read the fan sites and forums it is this element more than any other that keeps them going back - it doesn't matter where their favourite driver/team/marque starts from they could still win. It would be fair to say that the opposite is the case here. I am sure many fans of the series have become increasingly disinterested - there isn't much point going to a race when your favourite driver/team has qualified outside the top 10.
I don't know how we redress that situation. It's pretty easy on a half mile or even one mile oval to pick up places from the rear of the field when the total lap time is in the order of 13 seconds! Likewise the longer races (still less than 2 hours of elapsed time) require 3 or 4 fuel stops that introduce a whole range of different strategies into the equation. Many of the short track races will have more than a dozen safety car periods during the 200 laps. Even the rules encourage this close racing. Lapped cars can get a lap back at each safety car as the leader will let them pass on the way to the line, some races have compulsory pit stops where a caution flag is thrown and everyone is forced to pit for tyres even though fuel isn't required; etc etc.

One of the other things I would dearly love to see is a series similar to IROC (International Race of Champions). This puts a dozen drivers from the different formulae (Nascar, CART, IRL and CanAm) into identical race cars (currently Pontiac Firebirds) and runs as a 6 race series on a mix of ovals and road circuits. The racing is close, the races themselves are short sprints and the fans love it. Effectively it answers the old perennial question about who is really the best driver as it takes most of the other variables out. Over the 26 year duration of the series it has been won by a who's who of drivers and the series has never been dominated by any of the feeder series. This years champ is a Busch series rookie who came from Craftsmen Trucks. I guess the cost of doing a series like this (albeit in almost production cars) means that it will never happen but it would be great viewing.

I am probably just dribbling down my shirt again. No doubt the series here won't change greatly. 2003 will bring more long races which should (slightly) minimise the criticality of start position and hopefully Project Blueprint will close the gap between the top Holden and Ford teams. Outside of that we can expect the same old inconsistent application of rules, ridiculous penalties and an increasing sanitisation of the racing. All I can say is I am thankful for the Brutes series. It is racing the way V8 Supercars used to be with plenty of elbow and close competition. They do need to make the Holdens a bit more competitive but let us hope they don't get too carried away with the rule book there. It is entertaining and that is why we pay our money to watch. The powers that be could do worse than to learn some lessons from their Nascar cousins and the Brutes series.

Cheers
Russ
 
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#2 ·
Nicely put.

The Brutes are far more entertaining than the V8 Supercars - I would even go as far to say the Konica in previous years has out-classed the main game in terms of entertainment on some occasions. The race should be deteremined on the sunday, not in the qualifying session on saturday.
 
#5 ·
I think the Brute series is so popular due to them being closer to the original car than the V8 Supercars are.

I was as happy as anyone to see the return of V8s instead of AWD Turbos but I think it needs to be more like the old Group C with more brands. They need to get the application of the rules right first.

The way V8 Supercars are going, I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out to be a formula series with the only thing different about them is whether you have a Falcon or Commodore shell.

I personnally find NASCAR as boring as Formula 1 but you do bring up some good points Russell.

I find that the WRC is the most entertaining racing, followed by British Touring cars.
 
#6 ·
The way V8 Supercars are going, I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out to be a formula series with the only thing different about them is whether you have a Falcon or Commodore shell.
i cant tell you how i know this in case i get into trouble, but i can tell you 100% certain that the only similarity between the VX racecars and the road cars is the roof, the steering rack (amazingly!) and some of the glass. oh, and the door seals.

the doors are just a fabricated skin, the windows dont wind (apart from the drivers one i think), the rear end is totally fabricated to fit the 9" live axle, the front end is totally different...im sure the falcons are the same.

i say let everyone use the same suspension design as fitted to the road cars, and let us have the 5.4 with 4 valves and VVT, let the holden boys have the 5.7 GenIII, then we will see how interesting it gets!
 
#7 ·
There is no way that NASCAR would have allowed one make to dominate their version of a parity formula the way that has been allowed to happen in V8 Supercars. They are alway quick to react when one make gets several wins together.
 
#8 ·
I think we are being a little grim about the whole situation. Ford just needs to put a whole lot more $$$$$$ into the sport and we will see the results reverse.

The falcon getting COTY and a win at Sandown will be a powerful statement for the competition and most importantly the Ford supporters. I've been at nearly every round only to find myself folding the Ford flag and going home with my head down but I pick myself up for the next race. I think the V8 series will grow in popularity even more next year...it is getting a little stale that HRT are winning everything but hey they have a big budget and are very slick IMO.

On the issue of parity I think Fords and Holdens are pretty close on the track. Offtrack it isn't though money wise...but this will surely change. Patience...remember, parity was what killed the Bud Mustang in the GT Production racing. The sad thing about this is whenever Ford seems to be the winning team, the parity formula is enforced.

Anyhow, it is late at night. To sum up I think the series is great and has grown in popularity. Ford just needs to win a few and then all this talk of parity will just disappear...until we start winning a lot then it will work against us. Ford does not need to rely on the parity formula, we can do it on our own...we have all the talent we need...first it is the BA now it will naturally progress I hope...Things are looking up for us Ford fans, with a little help from Uncle Geoff ($$$) ofcourse.
 
#9 ·
The issue of overtaking and entertainment is one being studied by just about every circuit racing formula in the world. Unless the cars are underpowered and BTCC/FF etc or regular biffing is allowed Brutes/DTCM there is very little overtaking in any circuit racing.

F1 have identified the issue of circuit design as being one of the most important issues - Why risk late breaking or dangerous moves if an off means getting stuck in a sandtrap and the end of your race. They are pushing for runnoffs to be largely bitumen or concrete and lenthened so a car can have a go and get back on the track if it goes off. the problem is again cost.

On oval tracks you can run two even three wide and the constant high speed running allows less powerful cars to be towed along and keep in the race. It also allows spectators a greater view of what is happening and this contributes to the attendence. Compare this to eastern creek where other than corporate hill you can generally only se the cars go in a straight line for about 1/20th of the circuit if that.

Brutes are popular not because they are more like road cars - they too are a parity formula with rev restrictions but because there is a bit of biff and barge a.l.a BTCC 7 years ago. This is decreasing as costs go up and so will the support.

It is indeed a vexxing issue and if anyone could solve it the entire circuit racing world , not just v8's would be overjoyed, perhaps the boost button may be reintroduced allowing say five shots of revving to 8000 for 10 seconds going the BTCC way of allowing side by side or front to rear tapping but no rear quarter flicking?
 
#10 ·
Jamie XR6 said:
I find that the WRC is the most entertaining racing, followed by British Touring cars.
The BTCC was better when it involved the larger breed of cars (not the Astra's, Civic's etc).

It was better when it had the Laguna, S40, Quattro's, Mondeos, 406's. Ahhh, those were the days of real entertainment. WRC is fantastic as well, keeping its charm, right throughout its life.
 
#11 ·
One easy way to increase overtaking and make for closer racing:
get rid of this parity thing, relax the rules. allow more makes to compete. funny isn't this the way it used to be.
was a real thrill to see a ford beat a BMW or a Camaro or an ALFA or heaven forbid a Holden.
If one make dominated then the others had to work a little harder and improve their product.
 
#12 ·
Great XR8 said:
One easy way to increase overtaking and make for closer racing:
get rid of this parity thing, relax the rules. allow more makes to compete. funny isn't this the way it used to be.
was a real thrill to see a ford beat a BMW or a Camaro or an ALFA or heaven forbid a Holden.
If one make dominated then the others had to work a little harder and improve their product.
That would be enjoyable but then we might get a 7.0L Monaro driving around...oh damn! Nightmare has become reality.

On a serious note, parity makes for entertaining and close racing. But on race day, parity aside, race set up is what really matters and HRT have this down to the micro-detail. Its just up to the Ford teams to work harder in achieving this attention to detail. Hopefully the common suspension in 2003 will make it more even, we can only hope. Its just HRT/TWR are $$$ and I hate to admit it, pretty darn good in race set up.
 
#13 ·
Jamie XR6 said:
I think the Brute series is so popular due to them being closer to the original car than the V8 Supercars are.

I was as happy as anyone to see the return of V8s instead of AWD Turbos but I think it needs to be more like the old Group C with more brands. They need to get the application of the rules right first.

The way V8 Supercars are going, I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out to be a formula series with the only thing different about them is whether you have a Falcon or Commodore shell.

I personnally find NASCAR as boring as Formula 1 but you do bring up some good points Russell.

I find that the WRC is the most entertaining racing, followed by British Touring cars.

I agree totally lwith all your points jamie, except slightly about being happy to see the turbo awd's go.. It would be nice to see them still kick arse in some race cos they were just so damn good at doing it..

I definatly think that the cars should be more closely related to what you can buy off the showroom floor for a couple of reasons..
1.The development of the racecar and its goodies can have a flow on effect to the street model for durability , handling and performance benefits..

2.It could potentially keep the costs down and therefore encourage more competitors in the group if they wernt allowed to go get some ultra expensivemods done to every bit of the car (which in the process divorces the actual race car from anything close to the underlying model on which it is based)

Personally my favourite forms of racing are wrc and nations cup/targa tasmainia style events..
I'll watch the v8's at bathurst but they seem to get tedious in the otherwise imo..
 
#14 ·
/me sticks on mining hat

I think that the V8s are finally getting to be a parity series. The racing hasn't been as close since I can remember, irregardless of which team is winning.
 
#16 ·
HDTDude said:
yeah i think holden will come out on top at the end when it comes to bathurst ford carnt seem to do long distance very good they tend to brack down
I've never heard off a Ford bracking down before,(ha,ha)
I guess we will just have to wait and see dude, bring on the Mountain.
 
#17 ·
I think there are differing opinions on what makes good motor racing. I personally like to see racing of the 'old school' nature, with little or no biff & barge, and drivers conceding to cars attempting to pass when they are obviously faster. That is why I vastly prefer endurance races, instead of the idiotic chaos of the sprint events, where if you don't qualify well you may as well pack up & avoid the panel damage. An overlooked factor in motor sport entertainment I feel is the behaviour of the cars themselves when they race. This is what makes WRC so entertaining, & it is the only thing keeping F1 alive. When you see these cars racing on the limit you can't help but feel the rush that the driver must be experiencing. You never actually see cars passing each other in WRC but it is probably the most entertaing form of motor sport anywhere at the moment. Bikes also are fantastic to watch because it's all so hairy!!! I think that whilst they would be slower, the V8's would be far more entertaining if they removed their aero packages. It would also mean less parity issues, as this is the single most problematic area of the cars when it comes to fair play.
 
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