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Old 08-26-2004, 15:32   #1 (permalink)
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Throttle Body Issue

I have a young customer with a manual BA XR8. I decided to play some R and D games with him.

I had him drop his car into my shop everynight this week. I would make a mod, then send him home. The next day, i would change it back. All the while, telling him to thrash the car and tell me what he thinks according to the "Bum-o-meter".

Monday night, he called in. He sat in my waiting room. ( at no time has he seen what i have done to his car, he is mechanically illiterate ) and i pretended to change something.

He went out and thrashed his car all night, and called me a few hours after making the "mod" and told me that it didn't feel any better. Since i hadn't actually made a change, i was happy with his honesty.

I had him return the next day, and he instructed me to put the car back to standard. so, again whilst in the waiting room, i made a change.

I removed his standard TB and 75 helix, and fitted an 80mm TB and helix. Being a BPT throttle body, he was unable to visually determine a change.

As far as he was concerned, i had put his car back to "standard", and drove off in his car.

Later that night, he called me on my mobile, and laughed and said that in standard form the car felt stonger everywhere, and he wouldn't waste his time with the change i had proposed.

He didn't know it, but he solved a problem for all of us.

The car had at the start a Battens CAI with a BMC, and a BPT 75mm helix. Without being emotionally "coloured" by a pre concieved idea of what the mods should deliver, his opinion was that the car did in fact benefit from the 80mm setup. He didn't even know it was on, he was giving me his heartfelt opinion.

This car has no further mods.

I revealed my trick to him last night, and he didn't believe me. So i showed him. he smiled, and told me i wasn't getting the 80mm gear back!!

His invoice is in the mail.

The motto of the story is whilst changing parts is the only way to find out, you can have your own mind "tainted" by an expectation or idea.

I have seen guys with bazooka sized exhausts that sound like a banshee, and the owner swears the car is faster.

it may sound faster, but thats not always the case.

Dont be coloured. Be educated. Dyno, or track. that is the ONLY way to learn.
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Old 08-26-2004, 16:12   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

the 'placebo' effect in full action :0)
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Old 08-26-2004, 16:46   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

I appreciate this as an unbiased test, but it would have been interesting to go through this process a few more times to see if you could 'catch him out'. If he was right every time you could say your results were fairly conclusive for that car.
I know my car varies with out making changes.
Why are some others who have tried the 80mm and expected more (as with the drain pipe exhausts) saying the smaller TB is giving more go. I wouldn't like to have to say that after spending my money on a performance upgrade.
I spoke to BPT the other day and he told me his car felt better with the 75mm.TB and spacer.
Maybe it is car dependant. Depending on your engine parameters, some may benefit more than others.
Maybe the full benefit will be seen with a remapped computer (chipped or Boss Edit).
I am not knocking your find, but because I want to upgrade myself, I don't want to buy a 75mm spacer and kick myself later for not buying the 80mm setup.
I would really be interested to see this test procedure done with a few more guinea pigs. All done at the same time, and driving in the same conditions. That might be a more conclusive result.
I wonder if anyone could set this up using an accelerometer and computer, then we could see some acceleration times (graphs) in set gears, between set speeds.eg Time from 30 - 60kph in second or 3rd gear. this would tell us what is really working in everyday driving. A fairly accurate indication, with out going by seat of the pants feelings.
At the end of the day if the driver is getting what he wants from his car, for the dollars outlayed, thats all that matters.
I can't afford to keep on doing things twice. I want to be sure before I buy. I was all happy to stay 75mm. Now I'm not so sure.
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Old 08-26-2004, 17:13   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

I will start off with the comment "I am no car expert, I am not in the Car industry, this is my first performance car and I love it".

As this car is "mass produced" and relatively speaking Ford Australia does not have a huge budget as compared to other countries, It appears no two are the same. Peoples driving styles also differ significantly so different mods are perceived differently by the owner.

Other factors that appear to have some impact on performance include but are not limited to
  1. Fuel type
  2. Engine age in Km's and time
  3. General condition of engine
  4. Oil
  5. Tyres
  6. Driver style
  7. Etc. Etc. (Insert whatever variables you can think of or you believe is important)

Other peoples experiences can only be used as a guide as has been pointed out previously even Dynos differ so to compare cars based on Dyno sheets can also be deceptive. That is why at the Ford / Holden shows the cars are compared on the same Dyno. It doesn't matter if your car has been run on another Dyno and achieved higher or lower results.

I read the posts as an indication of what may be achieved with some of the mentioned mods.

The only other comment is that based on the above two people could have diametrically opposed opinions and both be right, because it is their perception. The thing that really separates people is how they go about expressing their opinions, just because someone does not agree with you, it does not mean that they are not intelligent. Conversely to blindly agree with other people definitely does not make you an intelligent person (see signature).

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Old 08-26-2004, 17:58   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue


I don't consider myself to be emotional when it comes to how fast my car will or won't go or respond. Fact is I had to fork out $400+ for a new standard T/Body and if it didn't make the car perform better it would be getting taken off and sent back to FMC, but it does make the car more responsive under 4000rpm. This was confirmed again yesterday when in the rain the tendency to break rear traction was much more than what it has been with the 80mm , even my missus can notice the extra shove in the back under hard acceleration. Maybe my car is a freak, maybe I'm a freak, or maybe not all GTs like the 80mm. If my truth hurts 80mm fans so be it but as far as I'm concerned for my car it was just a complete waste of money Why would I leave it off if it gave MY CAR better performance, personally IMHO I reckon you get triple the grunt from a BMC air filter for less than a quarter of the price
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Old 08-26-2004, 18:23   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

EB, excellent "blind" experiment that can only objectively be enhanced by a "double blind" where the person who interacts with the subject also does not know whether it is real or placebo. Also, to better generalise results, a greater sample is required. However, your point is well made though I believe another valid point is that this analysis works for a "control" group that Hypnodoc could not be part of due to his extensive modifications list.

Huh?

Put simply, while this type of analysis could work with a "standard to throttle body" control group, we can not generalise the results for anyone with any other existing modifications if we adopted a more rigorously "scientific" approach. This is because we do not know the effects of the other "variables" that may contribute to the synergistic, or even hindering, effects of the combined modifications, unless we analysed each in turn through elimination by reduction.

In short, if Hypnodoc does not believe it works for him, whether or not he uses bumometer or more explicit means of measurement, then it does not work for him, but that in itself does not preclude the throttle body modification benefiting someone else.

Safe and happy driving...Dr Z.
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Old 08-26-2004, 18:47   #7 (permalink)
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Dr Z, Hypnodoc, GTP151, Fantm1 and dellboy, thankyou all for your responses.

Being a dyno operator, engine builder, flowbench tech etc etc i know the value of real data, and i know the downside of bad data.

I conducted the above experiment to prove a point about the throttle bodies. I will firstly point out that i honestly value all of your comments.

One thing that i think requires addressing about all mods is the two main categories that they fall into.

Some people will want to do all of the mods, and some will only want the few that really matter.

Being a drag racer, i want the lot. But in saying that i would also like to point out that i would like to advise people in the proper manner about what they should purchase.

No one likes being sold things that they dont need.

I have found that with these engines, you start with the mods that matter. A larger throttle body would more than likely be a poor choice for someone on a limited budget. A 75 helix, with CAI, underdrives and a cat back 2.5 would suit someone who doesn't want to go the whole hog.

If you want the FAMILY pizza, the 80mm is the go. myself, Rod and several others have proved it. on the track, on the dyno.

Then, you guys make points about driving conditions, all of which are good points, and points worth considering.

how much weight (extra weight) in the car, what fuel, weather, road surface, etc. its the "inbetweens" that make people uncertain.

The beauty of all of this, is that the customer gets to make up their own mind, and i would urge everybody to continue to try new things. Just be careful about being "poisoned" by a pre concieved idea of how something should go or work or how much yield in rwkw.

we will try to guide you to the best of our ability with tech data and qtr times.



The rest is up to you.
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Old 08-26-2004, 21:18   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

EB 5.6

Thanks for a great reply. The problem for a novice on a tight budget is going to be which mod first, if any. Like your client I would love to be able to return parts if they did not "improve" the performance of my car, but sadly due to the nature of parts this is often difficult to either go back to a pre mod status, and it is especially difficult to return the parts. Just the way of the world i suppose.

Perhaps in this thread or even another experienced "modders" could suggest an order of priority of mods and reasons why that order. I suggest this not to create fights but to assist novices to attempt to match their desires to those others have experienced. I certainly don't want to create a shit fight.

Eg drag strip performance setup order such and such.

Street with extreme acceleration alternative setup.

I personally love to watch Drag Racing, but I have no desire to take my car to the track other than a spectator. I like to get to the speed limit as quickly as possible, spend most of my time below the speed limits, with the occasional flat out where I am comfortable with my situation. I also love the idea and looks of Twin / Quad pipes, but not sure at the moment. Others want different things from their cars.

Just some more thoughts.

Steven

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Old 08-26-2004, 21:32   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

Exactly! It would be ideal to try each mod by itself, and the various combinations. It gets a bit confusing thou when one person in an XR8(as posted elsewhere) gets a 13.6 with CAI only, and someone else goes from a 14.8 to 14.7(posted elswhere) by putting on an 80mm throttle body. Again, different engines, different days, different track conditions ( from memory, I hope I have quoted the correct figures. I apologise if I'm wrong)
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Old 08-26-2004, 21:51   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Throttle Body Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTP151
EB 5.6

Thanks for a great reply. The problem for a novice on a tight budget is going to be which mod first, if any. Like your client I would love to be able to return parts if they did not "improve" the performance of my car, but sadly due to the nature of parts this is often difficult to either go back to a pre mod status, and it is especially difficult to return the parts. Just the way of the world i suppose.

Perhaps in this thread or even another experienced "modders" could suggest an order of priority of mods and reasons why that order. I suggest this not to create fights but to assist novices to attempt to match their desires to those others have experienced. I certainly don't want to create a shit fight.

Eg drag strip performance setup order such and such.

Street with extreme acceleration alternative setup.

I personally love to watch Drag Racing, but I have no desire to take my car to the track other than a spectator. I like to get to the speed limit as quickly as possible, spend most of my time below the speed limits, with the occasional flat out where I am comfortable with my situation. I also love the idea and looks of Twin / Quad pipes, but not sure at the moment. Others want different things from their cars.

Just some more thoughts.

Steven

Thankyou Steve,

What mods do you have
what is the car
how do u drive it?
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