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Extractors, what to get?

20K views 178 replies 41 participants last post by  sxr6man 
#1 ·
So, we've got a cam thread, but cams are kinda useless without a decent exhaust set up. I'm looking into an exhaust at the moment. Settled on either a Lucky or Redback 2.5 mandrel bent cat back (depends what's cheaper I spose), but then there's extractors to come into it.

What are the options? And what sort effect do different brands have on power/torque curves?

Idealy I'm looking for something that brings power on as early as possible, then keeps it decent power right up to the red line. It doesn't matter if power drops off a bit after about 4250, as long as it holds it fairly level after that. A cam should take care of top end power.

Also, any point in HPC? Or just wank factor?

Go nuts posting dyno graphs or what not.
 
#2 ·
i hear pacemakers are the go, no proof of anything though :-S good thread, ill be shopping for headers soon!
 
#5 ·
I am running the Pacemakers. I think they work well down low as the dyno graph on my gallery shows. I Think Soxx may be right that with a decent high lift cam the JMM race series will work a bit better though.
 
#7 ·
Soxx said:
I personally think the JMM race series are one of the better ones.
Whatever you get, make certain the primaries are 1.5" in diameter.

Rick.
I agree 100%. And to prove it, I visited JMM a few days ago and was given an hour long guided tour of the shop, shown everything and had my million questions answered. As part of the tour I was shown a pile, a very LARGE pile, of extractors for the I6. Some were old, some were brand new, one was not ever released on the market yet. There were pacemakers Dephillipo(sp?), Genies, every brand you can imagine. I asked what Jim was going to do with them all. His answer....Press them down for scrap, they are all junk as far as he's concerned. Now, you may think "yeah, sure, he just wants you to buy his" cause thats what I thought. That was untill he invited me to help myself to a set if I wanted. Any set there, they were junk to him so I was welcome to a set, free, no worries. Only ones I would have to pay for were his JMM sets. This tells me something straight away, he has supreme confidence in his extractors, he also happily explained why,

For the record, I didnt take a set, I'll wait and pay for one of his sets, the race headers to be exact. Thats how sure I am they are the best!
 
#8 ·
Can you get me a set for free? :p I'll give you $30!!!! Pacemakers preferably ;)

Sundeep
 
#10 ·
On a more serious note (even though I was serious in my last post Casper ;)) what is everyone's opinion on Genies? I am able to get SPHELL's old set for a good price but people are telling me Genies aren't the best??

If I do end up going some performance mods I'll most likely start with the exhaust and those Genies, along with a BBM. I'll also piss the clutch fan off for a nice set of thermos. I'll most likely take the car off the road and do it all at once to see if I can feel the difference when it's all done at once.

I had a ride in psycho_chickens EB after he did his BBM conversion and was quite impressed with how easily it revved all the way out to red line with out struggling up high like my EA, and that with only long runners!

Should I save for paint and wheels,or should I go performance! If I go performance after cosmetics i'll definitely go the forced induction route...although a very subtle setup compared to some stuff the boys here have done.

Cheers boys!

Sundeep
 
#11 ·
Well, I used to have genies on my old XD and loved them at the time (many, many years ago). There was also a nice set right on top of that pile that I "almost" lunged at, bloody hell, I probably should have just for the sound!

I have/had always held genies in very high regard.
 
#13 ·
Sounds like i might have to give Jim a call! I dont care if he thinks theyre crap, anything's gotta be better than stock :fraz: .

IS anybody running Pacemaker Competition Series? I have the oppotunity to pick a set of these up at a reduced price, im still making up my mind.
 
#14 ·
Ok, guys, with JMM, I was made the offer but I dont think he'll appreciate everyone ringing up saying can I have some of your old extractors from the pile. He is running a business. The offer he made me was to prove a point and I honestly wouldnt put anything but JMM Race headers on my car anyhow.
Please do NOT contact JMM and say "Hey, Casper said you had old headers to give away!" He did it to prove a point, a point that I got and one that I agree with, and shared with you. He did NOT make the offer in general to everyone who wants a set.

Oh, and if you do want the JMM race headers, he just got a new shipment in of the newer style with a number if nice little refinements made to them over his original style race headers. :angel:
 
#15 ·
Sunny, I think half the reason my car revs so nicely is the thermofans as well as the BBM. I noticed a difference after I did both of them.

Personally, I don't want to go down the JMM line. Yes, I realise they are starting to prove themselves (if a S/C 4.0 can count? Surely not?). However I want to research all the mods I'm doing myself. Any idiot can go slap $10000 bucks on the table and get performance. That's a stereotype I want to stay away from.

However, if Jim Mock can prove to me his headers are the duck's guts and the pile of extractors is more than just a gimmick, I might fork out for a set, providing the benefits are worth the price hike.
 
#16 ·
psycho chicken said:
Sunny, I think half the reason my car revs so nicely is the thermofans as well as the BBM. I noticed a difference after I did both of them.

Personally, I don't want to go down the JMM line. Yes, I realise they are starting to prove themselves (if a S/C 4.0 can count? Surely not?). However I want to research all the mods I'm doing myself. Any idiot can go slap $10000 bucks on the table and get performance. That's a stereotype I want to stay away from.

However, if Jim Mock can prove to me his headers are the duck's guts and the pile of extractors is more than just a gimmick, I might fork out for a set, providing the benefits are worth the price hike.
This is the most intelligent thread I've read all day. This is EXACTLY what you should do. Dont take my word for it, have it 100% totally proven to you so that when you lay that money on the table you know that you will not regret it.
I have spent over a year researching every little mod I want to make to my car. Countless hours websurfing, more PM's then I can remember and many many howurs of MSN, IRC and voice conversations to discover what works and what doesnt for my car.
I'm still learnign but I now have a 90% solid idea of exactly what is going to be done to my car, by whom, when, in what order and most importantly WHY!

I recommend everyone else do the same.
 
#17 ·
psycho chicken said:
Sunny, I think half the reason my car revs so nicely is the thermofans as well as the BBM. I noticed a difference after I did both of them.

Personally, I don't want to go down the JMM line. Yes, I realise they are starting to prove themselves (if a S/C 4.0 can count? Surely not?). However I want to research all the mods I'm doing myself. Any idiot can go slap $10000 bucks on the table and get performance. That's a stereotype I want to stay away from.

However, if Jim Mock can prove to me his headers are the duck's guts and the pile of extractors is more than just a gimmick, I might fork out for a set, providing the benefits are worth the price hike.

I admire you thinking Rob, its is the best thing to do, why do you think it has taken me so long to find a cam etc for my car.

The thermo's made a huge revability differance my car.

As you said its all to easy to pay for your performance, but where ios the fun unless you get your hands dirty.
 
#18 ·
It is not rocket science really is it? No offence Chicken but the i6 has been around for along time now and there won't be much you can think of/improve that hasn't been done 100 times already, Maybe for Casper and the quirks of the VCT but for the HP 4.0l its pretty straight forward, the JMM headers are one of the best.. Rollin and Soxx (arguably the some of the higher output N/A i6 engines here) both use them...

You have seen the Mock cars run? You know their times, maybe they are pricey but it is the old adage "You get what you pay for"... Perhaps the new Pacemaker Competitions are OK but they look like a set of Mock pipes anyhow

I personally have the Lukey's .. Garbage... great sound but i have lost so much down low and mid- range its disgraceful.. To be honest my taxi is tuned for economy not performance but even the eco suffered at the hands of those dam pipes...

And Genies... some of you might remember the thread when i cut a set open to have a look inside... The Workmanship was terrible... The pipes overlapped in the cones... the pipe was crushed near the flange, there was slag and welding wire INSIDE the pipes... I thought Genie had better quality control than that, the Genies were the benchark a few years ago. Hypothetically even if the Genies were a superior design the workmanship would make for some poor performance
 
#20 ·
tibbo said:
It is not rocket science really is it? No offence Chicken but the i6 has been around for along time now and there won't be much you can think of/improve that hasn't been done 100 times already, Maybe for Casper and the quirks of the VCT but for the HP 4.0l its pretty straight forward, the JMM headers are one of the best.. Rollin and Soxx (arguably the some of the higher output N/A i6 engines here) both use them...

You have seen the Mock cars run? You know their times, maybe they are pricey but it is the old adage "You get what you pay for"... Perhaps the new Pacemaker Competitions are OK but they look like a set of Mock pipes anyhow

I personally have the Lukey's .. Garbage... great sound but i have lost so much down low and mid- range its disgraceful.. To be honest my taxi is tuned for economy not performance but even the eco suffered at the hands of those dam pipes...

And Genies... some of you might remember the thread when i cut a set open to have a look inside... The Workmanship was terrible... The pipes overlapped in the cones... the pipe was crushed near the flange, there was slag and welding wire INSIDE the pipes... I thought Genie had better quality control than that, the Genies were the benchark a few years ago. Hypothetically even if the Genies were a superior design the workmanship would make for some poor performance
Yes, I realise that you get what you pay for. However, after expenses, I'm on less than $100 a week. I can't afford to simply go buying whatever is expensive. If JMM headers are worth the extra quid I'll go right in a get a set, however I won't go put the extra money down without looking into it a bit more, which is exactly what I'm doing.

And I remember reading around here somewhere that JMM headers were made by Lukey?
 
#21 ·
I know when the time comes in a couple of months, I'll be going the JMM Race Headers for sure. I've done my research and searched and read many threads like Casper.

psycho chicken, why don't you hold off for a while and come down to JMM's workshop yourself and ask him. See first hand what their product is, and then make your conclusion.

http://www.fordforums.com/showthread.php?t=70090 vbmenu_register("postmenu_790458", true);
 
#22 ·
Casper,

point taken about Jim and his pile o' extractors - i was kidding anyway lol. I wouldnt feel right about taking them from him anyway.

JMM - Im very interested in their stuff, but I'm leaning more toward pacemakers atm, ive heard nothing but good things about them, and as i mentioned, i have the oppotunity to get a set of comp series ones at a reasonably good price - much better than retail anyway (where i am, a set of BASIC pacemakers will cost you $700 fitted).

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see just how much of a difference they make as apart from a cat back system they will be the only major mod ive done (K&N is about the only other actual non-visual mod), so whether they make a huge difference just on their own or whether they need to be added along with stuff like a cam etc etc remains to be seen - for me anyway.
 
#23 ·
I plan on coming the open day and I plan on being an annoying little shit asking questions like mad! Who knows, I might even buy a set.

I'll probably go down before then as well. Brendan helped me out HEAPS over the phone when I was doing the BBM, I have no doubt they are nice guys. However as everyone knows, first impressions last, and we've only just seen them getting out and about proving their product, it seemed rather secretive up until now.
 
#24 ·
psycho chicken said:
And I remember reading around here somewhere that JMM headers were made by Lukey?
It is true that JMM do not fabricate there headers on site but thats not uncommon. The headers are made exactly to the design that JMM come up with. The have the equipment to build them but not for mass production. So they make up the prototypes, test them, refine them, then send the specifications out to be made in bulk.
Same applies for a lot of companies. Ford dont make a lot of parts on the Falcon. Guages, headlights, door handles etc. All are to Fords design but are made by companies who have the facilities to mass produce such items.
 
#25 ·
Yeah, I realise that, it's fair enough, the equipment to make them would cost more than it's worth to match demand. However, what's to stop Lukey taking on board some of the design aspects? Obviously there's a legal contract involving disclosure of the specs by Lukey, but would there be something similar about Lukey using features in their own designs?

It's probably all speculation though, because I guess Lukey nor Mock will tell us.

Bring on the open day I say.
 
#26 ·
Mock states @ fordmods.com:

About extractors:

As far as extractors go..............The JMM design has nothing to do with pacemakers.........the pipe sizes and lengths are completely different, and compared to pacies and any other related extractor set, the JMM extractors are tested, designed and actually work.........

Over our testing and development we have found the pacemakers to be unsuitable in all forms of our dev kits, even on std engines. For example over pacies our will make another 4 kw over their power. Not only that the throttle response and mid range throttle power is greatly improved over the pacies.

BUT, when used with a kit, ie dev 5. Pacies are actually unusable because they dont scavenge out the exhaust gas. This causes uncontrolable detonation. Even by retarding the ign timing the detonation still occurs until such time that a marginal power loss is found, ie 15kw but more power is lost in the mid range.
With all this detonation going on, with an EF or AU it could only be seen that the KNOCK sensors which these engines rely on will be going nutz to say the least. Thus the conclusion is made that pacies and any equivilant there of are not suitable by our standards
Needless to say that the 3rd series of development (JMM Race Series) has just been finished and includes yet another design of header, that is once again, completely different to any other header on the market, even our previous sets..........AND yes, we are making more power than ever....

Please read this carefully and consider.........

JMM is a full in house reasearch and development company, offering our products to the public. Our practice is "If it dosen't work, its simple....WE DONT SELL IT". That way, everyone is happy.
Our JMM race series headers arent lukeys. Haven't used lukeys for two years now !
About Speculation JMM uses Crow Cams:
Our camshafts are unique in design and profile. all hand designed...YES "HAND"....cos no one else makes priofiles for this style of rocker gear geometry.....EVEN CRANE.

The crow cams most commonly used are 1, the EA cam stage 1 which has duration of 198 and 198 which is actually two EA exhaust lobes ground onto both intake and exhaust.....the second stage 2 is 198/194 in duation and is the EA exhaust with an EF tickford exhaust lobe as just that....they made this cam to try and get the idle of the 1st cam a little smoother and reliable.............Neither of these cams compares or even belongs to the stratergies of the JMM designs or quality.....The stage 3 crow is a 209/200 duration can which shows no real development in profile.
JMM Specialize in Fords! All this crap that JMM uses different products and badges them as his own, is really just crap itself. Mock sure knows what he's talking about just by his posts. Can't wait to talk to him in person.

Lindsay
 
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