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Old 05-19-2003, 06:29   #1 (permalink)
XR9UTE
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MAF SEFI 4.0L conversion a goer

For those interested.....

On Sunday I fired up the 4.0L EB II using an EECIV from a 5.0 HO Mustang.
Being a series 2 EB automatic the original Speed density EECIV needed to be retained to operate the gearbox. A Y-harness was made to allow both EECís to be plugged into the main harness. An extra harness of ten or so wires was made to connect to four of the injectors and the MAF sensor.
The engine fired right up and actually idled smoother than before. A test run around the block revealed amazingly smooth operation(considering the cal. Is basically all 5.0)from the engine but uni-joint smashing changes from the gearbox. Obviously some sensors diverted to the Engine EEC are still required by the Trans EEC(I suspect the PIP for one).


Some basic parameters that were changed;

Engine Displacement 242.98 ci
Fuel Injector Slope Low 25.00 Lb/Hr
Fuel Injector Slope High 21.00 Lb/Hr
EGR type switch 2 (2= off)
Rev Limit half fuel on 5500rpm
Rev Limit half fuel off 5200rpm
Number of cylinders 6
Ignition Degrees per PIP 120
Fuel Injectors per output 1
Fuel Injector outputs 6
Trans Type Switch 2 (2=automatic)
Number of cyls per rev 3
Thermactor present 0 (0= no)
Ignition Sig PIP duty cycle 0.239990234375
Number of HEGOís 1

Some maps that were changed;

Injector ouput port 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Injector Firing Order 1 5 3 6 2 4 0 0

Some parameters that I suspect will need changing;

Intake filling 1.99899291992188
Throttle body air flow 0.550048828125

Next will be a trip to the dyno to calibrate the thing.
Note: there are about another 120 parameters, another 25 maps(3D maps) and about 80 functions(2D maps)

Will update when gearbox shifting properly and after a trip to the dyno.
Then Iíll find a 2nd hand turbo and give it heaps. Actually I better find someone with a fresh engine who wants to be a guinea pig.

Pete.
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Old 05-19-2003, 07:28   #2 (permalink)
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Pete, you can use my EB if you want another trial car,
As its running a blower, it would be a good test for the SEFI setup on boost with a 6.

What sort of basic costs are we looking at for the parts, and an approximate cost to expect for labour for the conversion, and basic calibrations.

What setup did you use for detecting cam / crank angle, or can you do it off the standard dizzy?

Also have you managed to put the second ecu in a hidden spot?

Jamie - 9psi EB
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Old 05-19-2003, 18:49   #3 (permalink)
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>Pete, you can use my EB if you want another trial car,
>As its running a blower, it would be a good test for the SEFI >setup on boost with a 6.

****en oath, lets get to it!

>What sort of basic costs are we looking at for the parts, and an >approximate cost to expect for labour for the conversion, and >basic calibrations.

It's a bit early to tell yet. I'll have to work it out.

>What setup did you use for detecting cam / crank angle, or can >you do it off the standard dizzy?

Standard dizzy just like the 5.0L

>Also have you managed to put the second ecu in a hidden spot?

Nope it's a mess of wire on the passenger side floor. I could make the Y-harness long enough to fit the EEC where the BTR trans issue was originally situated(near the column)

BTW do you happen to know the lb/hr of the 736 injectors? Thought I had it somewhere but can't find the list. I just bunged in 21lb because I seem to remember that size?

Pete.
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Old 05-19-2003, 19:31   #4 (permalink)
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Pete,

Not too sure on the injector ratings,
They arent listed on the site http://www.geocities.com/ttskipp/injector.html

I thought factory ones are 19's

I know its still early, but have you noticed any major improvement with the SEFI setup compared to std.

Do you need to calculate when the valve opens in conjunction to the trigger signal or does the ecu work all that out for you?

The only drama on mine would be trying to get the maf somewhere in between the blower and throttle body, as there is only around 20mm gap, the output of the blower butts up against the T/body. The only way would be to rotate the blower outlet and make up some sort of S pipe to fit the maf, however it will be a very tight fit. This would prob be the biggest drama in doing the conversion with the powerdyne, and with the bends required, restrict the airflow to the t/body.

Is it possible to use a map sensor with the 5.0 EEC instead of maf, or will that be defeating the purpose? (possibly a voltage output map? in place of maf)

Currently - i have removed the chip i was running (the dump i gave you) and modified the trans wiring to improve the shifts (see other post) The car is going a LOT better with out the chip, and isnt pinging at all. Like you said, dunno what those CA## people did to the program, but they have seemed to have made a mess of it, it would never go consistantly.
The approx AF/R is around 13.6 constantly (bit rich for closed loop) however, up to around 12.5 under load (DIY AF/R off HEGO). It seems the ecu cant trim any more off the fueling map in closed loop. I might put a new thermostat in, to make it run hotter, as my current one is modified to stop airlocks in the system (4mm hole in it) and does run cool.

9psi EB
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Old 05-19-2003, 22:08   #5 (permalink)
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>I thought factory ones are 19's

5.0 ones are but I'm not sure about the I6 jobs.

>I know its still early, but have you noticed any major >improvement with the SEFI setup compared to std.

Read my original post again.

>Do you need to calculate when the valve opens in conjunction >to the trigger signal or does the ecu work all that out for you?

Read what I changed. The EEC works out everything from there.

>The only drama on mine would be trying to get the maf somewhere in between the blower and throttle body, as there is only around 20mm gap, the output of the blower butts up against the T/body. The only way would be to rotate the blower outlet and make up some sort of S pipe to fit the maf, however it will be a very tight fit. This would prob be the biggest drama in doing the conversion with the powerdyne, and with the bends required, restrict the airflow to the t/body.

No the MAF goes in front of the blower inlet not after it.

>Is it possible to use a map sensor with the 5.0 EEC instead of maf, or will that be defeating the purpose? (possibly a voltage output map? in place of maf)

No, and if you could it would be a dumb idea. The whole reason to change to MAF is it's ease of tuning. Especially with forced induction.

>Currently - i have removed the chip i was running (the dump i gave you) and modified the trans wiring to improve the shifts (see other post) The car is going a LOT better with out the chip, and isnt pinging at all. Like you said, dunno what those CA## people did to the program, but they have seemed to have made a mess of it, it would never go consistantly.
The approx AF/R is around 13.6 constantly (bit rich for closed loop) however, up to around 12.5 under load (DIY AF/R off HEGO). It seems the ecu cant trim any more off the fueling map in closed loop. I might put a new thermostat in, to make it run hotter, as my current one is modified to stop airlocks in the system (4mm hole in it) and does run cool.

Ok you can't use a narrow band HEGO to tune under load. 13.6 is rich for light load cruise. Probably because the MAP says the inlet pressure is high enough therefore load is high enough to richen.
Have you tried making a MAP senor bleed?

Pete.
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Old 05-19-2003, 22:42   #6 (permalink)
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Pete,

The engine is running rich due to the larger injectors being run off the stock calibration, and it seems the ecu wont reduce the pulse width any more than it already has, this happens at around 10 inHg
On boost its fine, my AF/M (as inaccurate as it is) shows 12.5 - 12.8
Idle is around 13.8.
The fuel pressure at idle is 30psi, and up around 50-55 on boost.

Quote:
The engine fired right up and actually idled smoother than before. A test run around the block revealed amazingly smooth operation(considering the cal. Is basically all 5.0)from the engine
Does it seem more responsive, more torquey, or does it feel the same?

Putting the maf before the blower will require modification to the blow off valve plumbing?
Also the powerdyne blowers bleed some air out to atmosphere through the belt housing to keep the internal belt cool, so this may present false maf readings.
The volume of air released is minimal, so maybe the ecu can be tuned around this.

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Old 05-20-2003, 03:01   #7 (permalink)
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Oh I see,
Well no you couldn't expect the EEC to reduce pulse width that far. It doesn't know you changed the injectors....adaptive strategies only go so far. You shouldn't believe anything you see from a narrow band HEGO unless you are light load cruising. Only 1 point either side of stoich they become unstable.
You'll need a wide band HEGO to really know what's going on. Have you seen the kits by Techedge?

My car was a bit more responsive off idle but with the gearbox behaving badly it was hard to be objective. Plus it's calibrated for a 5.0.

Are you refering to a blow off valve or a bypass valve?
Set it up to bypass and your laughing. Just run it back between the blower inlet and the MAF. I mean your belt ratio should limit outright boost not a blow off valve. The little bit of air bleed is not a problem..you can compensate with calibration and as you can see many 5.0 kits don't have a problem even though they don't use electronic tuning.

Pete.
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Old 05-21-2003, 18:54   #8 (permalink)
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Just discovered that the 736 injectors are 191cc/min. But could not get a test pressure.

Pete
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Old 05-23-2003, 07:10   #9 (permalink)
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hmmm well i had a pipe dream the other day that im keen to turn to reality, $$$ permitting.

i wanted to get an AU I6 motor, pull the head off and get it ported (know a place that can port it to flow about 380hp) and supply a cam to suit, was going to put the motor in with all AU accessories and either use the AU comp with a chip (not my favorite option) or a delco VT V6 comp reprogrammed (as you know they have MAF sensor), or if i have to a full aftermarket setup (not keen on that).

if i can get a mustang EECIV that would be preferable to a commo computer, for purities sake!

if it cant run the dual length intake thats no problem, i can make that work easy :)

the car is a non-smartlock manual EB II XR6 - what do you think is my best option, and will the AU injectors cope with the fuel needed?

P.S. i know nothing is ever as simple as it looks and always costs a lot more than you budget for - im a mechanic at a holden dealer - no falcon could ever be as stupid and impossible to figure out as an astra or vectra!!!!
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Old 05-26-2003, 04:38   #10 (permalink)
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*bump*
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