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Old 10-20-2004, 06:30   #1 (permalink)
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confused Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Hey every one I'm new to this . Just put my fist post in the wrong place. will get it sussed. Anyway, I,ve got a 4v, closed chamber clevo thats not working to well. It's got 750DP, weiland accelorator, 224/234@50-536/560lift-112L.C. cam. It's also got 2V evtractors, 2000rpm stall(C10) and 3.55 diff. All this is working against itself. the motor has done just over 20K. Fuel economy is about 13MPG on the HWY. I'm about to change this combo but I'm not quite sure which way to go. I also have a nice set of closed chamber 2v's that flow around 500HP. I'm considering 3 different combos.Idea #1. -2v heads, parker funnelweb manifold,crow hydraulic( Got a new set of hydraulic lifters)242/250@50-570/570lift, bigger stall, maybe 3500 and 3.7 diff. OR Idea #2- 2V's, Torque power high rise dual plane manifold( has anyone used one of these, the look like they would be good)and maybe a slightly smaller cam than above. Or Idea #3- 4V's with tongues and funnelweb manifold. I cant decide which of these combos would be the best. The car is my daily driver. It feels like its only got 200rwhp max though it would have more. I wouldn't mind the fuel consumption if I wasn't getting wopped by hard sneezing nissans. Any advice would greatly apreciated. I'll get some photos of my XC on here soon. Cheers.
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Old 10-20-2004, 08:01   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUKE
Hey every one I'm new to this . Just put my fist post in the wrong place. will get it sussed. Anyway, I,ve got a 4v, closed chamber clevo thats not working to well. It's got 750DP, weiland accelorator, 224/234@50-536/560lift-112L.C. cam. It's also got 2V evtractors, 2000rpm stall(C10) and 3.55 diff. All this is working against itself. the motor has done just over 20K. Fuel economy is about 13MPG on the HWY. I'm about to change this combo but I'm not quite sure which way to go. I also have a nice set of closed chamber 2v's that flow around 500HP. I'm considering 3 different combos.Idea #1. -2v heads, parker funnelweb manifold,crow hydraulic( Got a new set of hydraulic lifters)242/250@50-570/570lift, bigger stall, maybe 3500 and 3.7 diff. OR Idea #2- 2V's, Torque power high rise dual plane manifold( has anyone used one of these, the look like they would be good)and maybe a slightly smaller cam than above. Or Idea #3- 4V's with tongues and funnelweb manifold. I cant decide which of these combos would be the best. The car is my daily driver. It feels like its only got 200rwhp max though it would have more. I wouldn't mind the fuel consumption if I wasn't getting wopped by hard sneezing nissans. Any advice would greatly apreciated. I'll get some photos of my XC on here soon. Cheers.
My thoughts are as follows:

For an automatic car, you'll want a narrower LSA camshaft with 4V heads. You'll also want to get rid of the Weiand X-celerator and use either a Torker or a dual plane for a street engine. I wouldn't use the Funnelweb on the 4V engine with an automatic in a daily driver. Try to borrow a 650 carburetor and see if your bottom end improves. I suspect that the 750 is a bit much for it. The smaller base plate of the 650 should improve velocity. If you have the space under your bonnet, try a 1" 4-hole spacer with your 750 to see if responsiveness picks up.

The 2V extractors must be a poor fit on 4V exhaust ports. I've never seen anyone able to fit a set of 2V extractors to a 4V without leaking. Are you sure that these are 4V heads?

You could definitely use more stall, but I wouldn't go over about 2800-3200 in a daily driver.

Your camshaft looks like it would be wrong for a set of 2V heads. I'd try to find one that is closer to even up on both intake and exhaust durations/lifts. I would probably look for a 110* LSA camshaft with a set of 2V heads with about 228* effective duration with about .540" lift.

If you stick with the 4Vs, I'd use a camshaft around 234*/246* at 108* LSA at about .550"/.580" lift. You will want about 3200 stall and a 3.7 rear gear. A 3.9 will be more helpful, but won't be as fun as a daily driver.


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Old 10-21-2004, 01:06   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

I have a different view. I believe your heads are soley to blame for the lack of performance, 4V's are overkill on all but the most worked clevo's and only if you have a really big solid or roller cammed engine are they are warranted. Not a fan of port tongues, though they effectively increase port velocity, I personally feel it is backwards engineering.

The cam you have in it now would work well with some mild 2V heads, and I also reckon the 750 carb is spot on which ever way you go. The cam is too small for the 4V's to work well.

The Weiand single plane works great on a street combo, and the only better option would be the Parker Funnelweb over 5000rpm.

So if you want a real ball tearer stay with the 4V heads, fit 4V extractors, stay with the 750 carb and go for a bigger cam than any of the ones you mentioned, and also fit the Parker Funnelweb. You'll definately need more stall than you've got and I can't see a motor like that being too pleasant as an everyday driver.

Alternatively, and much cheaper, change over to the 2V heads - sounds like they already have a decent port job, leave the Weiand on and fit the 242/250@50-570/570lift cam. I reckon you will get away with the gearing as it is.

The 2nd combo would still blow away most street cars, would be more streetable with better economy and cost you less than the first mentioned.

An XC is heavy and I reckon keeping taller gearing, minimum stall, using a cam with big torque and mid range thump and high port velocity 2V heads would give you a better driving experience in the long run.
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:09   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

after recently toying with a combo to run and trying to learn as much as i can before shelling out any dollars, i would have to agree if you have 4v heads that is the main cause for your problems 4v heads have there applications but you are after a strong street engine, i also agree more stall and less carb and maybe change that cam. just my 2 cents worth as i have changed my mind as much as i have changed undies over the last few weeks.
good luck
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:14   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davis
My thoughts are as follows:

For an automatic car, you'll want a narrower LSA camshaft with 4V heads. You'll also want to get rid of the Weiand X-celerator and use either a Torker or a dual plane for a street engine. I wouldn't use the Funnelweb on the 4V engine with an automatic in a daily driver. Try to borrow a 650 carburetor and see if your bottom end improves. I suspect that the 750 is a bit much for it. The smaller base plate of the 650 should improve velocity. If you have the space under your bonnet, try a 1" 4-hole spacer with your 750 to see if responsiveness picks up.

The 2V extractors must be a poor fit on 4V exhaust ports. I've never seen anyone able to fit a set of 2V extractors to a 4V without leaking. Are you sure that these are 4V heads?

You could definitely use more stall, but I wouldn't go over about 2800-3200 in a daily driver.

Your camshaft looks like it would be wrong for a set of 2V heads. I'd try to find one that is closer to even up on both intake and exhaust durations/lifts. I would probably look for a 110* LSA camshaft with a set of 2V heads with about 228* effective duration with about .540" lift.

If you stick with the 4Vs, I'd use a camshaft around 234*/246* at 108* LSA at about .550"/.580" lift. You will want about 3200 stall and a 3.7 rear gear. A 3.9 will be more helpful, but won't be as fun as a daily driver.


:davis:
Thanks for the advice. I've had a few people in the know suggest a 600 vac holley for better bottom end response. My mates 351 has a 650 vac and does 160 kph in top before the secondries kick. If it would reduce accelaration through the mid range and uup top I'm not sure? The car did recently have a 850 DP which I took off. Didn't seem much differnt with the 750DP, a little crisper through the mid range maybe, deffinately not any cheaper on fuel. The 2V extractors due play havoc on the gaskets, burning the out where it hits the flange. I will be fitting more stall soon, maybe next week-can't wait. I'll probably draw the line at @3200rpm. At this stage I'm leaning towards the 2V's, mainly due to more torque down low with less cam than would be needed to get the 4V's workn. I'll keep posting as I make the changes. Thanx again.
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:17   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azza
after recently toying with a combo to run and trying to learn as much as i can before shelling out any dollars, i would have to agree if you have 4v heads that is the main cause for your problems 4v heads have there applications but you are after a strong street engine, i also agree more stall and less carb and maybe change that cam. just my 2 cents worth as i have changed my mind as much as i have changed undies over the last few weeks.
good luck
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Glad to see I'm not the only one ...
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:38   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by STROKEXD
I have a different view. I believe your heads are soley to blame for the lack of performance, 4V's are overkill on all but the most worked clevo's and only if you have a really big solid or roller cammed engine are they are warranted. Not a fan of port tongues, though they effectively increase port velocity, I personally feel it is backwards engineering.

The cam you have in it now would work well with some mild 2V heads, and I also reckon the 750 carb is spot on which ever way you go. The cam is too small for the 4V's to work well.

The Weiand single plane works great on a street combo, and the only better option would be the Parker Funnelweb over 5000rpm.

So if you want a real ball tearer stay with the 4V heads, fit 4V extractors, stay with the 750 carb and go for a bigger cam than any of the ones you mentioned, and also fit the Parker Funnelweb. You'll definately need more stall than you've got and I can't see a motor like that being too pleasant as an everyday driver.

Alternatively, and much cheaper, change over to the 2V heads - sounds like they already have a decent port job, leave the Weiand on and fit the 242/250@50-570/570lift cam. I reckon you will get away with the gearing as it is.

The 2nd combo would still blow away most street cars, would be more streetable with better economy and cost you less than the first mentioned.

An XC is heavy and I reckon keeping taller gearing, minimum stall, using a cam with big torque and mid range thump and high port velocity 2V heads would give you a better driving experience in the long run.
The more I look into it, the more I'm starting to think 2V's. I'm a bit in the middle with carbies as long as it is set up wright and matches the motor there shouldn't be a problem. I will be keeping the 750DP because I've just had it rebuilt. Wouldn't mind trying a vac to feel the difference, if any? I have seen one clevo running high elevens with a 465 vac???? Must have been tweaked slightly! Was talking to a cam grinder (Phill at"SURE CAM", brisbane) today to see if it would be possible to have a hydrailic in the late 220's@50(on intake) with maybe 560-570 lift. This is about 30 though more lift than most catolouge cams of similar durations. My understanding of cams is duration=power range. Lift= torque in this power range. Phill said this was possible and also that quite a lot tighter lobe centres (Like 102-104 on the intake) would see quite drastic low range torque gains. I've personally never heard of these centres on a little hydraulic. Phill said the engine won't know any different and would be very responsive. He also agread that more stall, Dual plane high rise and the 2v's would be quite a ripper on the street. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this cam idea. Cheers...
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:41   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Your heads are severe overkill on a streeter,daily driver.I,d opt for the 2v setup.I am a big fan of these and it would make even more sense seeing as you have a pair.Sell the heads and intake and go for a 2v weiand excellerator and a 650 dp.I,d leave the cam alone for now.A bit more stall would be good too.
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Old 10-21-2004, 05:12   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Has this engine been to a reputable tuner? The reason I say this is on a chassis dyno you'll be able to see what stall is suited and carb sizes the engine likes. My guess is when you put the boot in with a 2000rpm stall the engine is really really flat till the cam power hits. The 750DP will cause flooding due to the stall being too small for the cam.

The main issue with cam choice on 4V street engines is it's a known fact you don't need a mid->large cam with 4V heads to make it move along nicely. You can be quite conservative.

What expectations do you have of the car?

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Old 10-21-2004, 08:54   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Bad combo- Any suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUKE
The more I look into it, the more I'm starting to think 2V's. I'm a bit in the middle with carbies as long as it is set up wright and matches the motor there shouldn't be a problem. I will be keeping the 750DP because I've just had it rebuilt. Wouldn't mind trying a vac to feel the difference, if any? I have seen one clevo running high elevens with a 465 vac???? Must have been tweaked slightly! Was talking to a cam grinder (Phill at"SURE CAM", brisbane) today to see if it would be possible to have a hydrailic in the late 220's@50(on intake) with maybe 560-570 lift. This is about 30 though more lift than most catolouge cams of similar durations. My understanding of cams is duration=power range. Lift= torque in this power range. Phill said this was possible and also that quite a lot tighter lobe centres (Like 102-104 on the intake) would see quite drastic low range torque gains. I've personally never heard of these centres on a little hydraulic. Phill said the engine won't know any different and would be very responsive. He also agread that more stall, Dual plane high rise and the 2v's would be quite a ripper on the street. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this cam idea. Cheers...
All decent 351's I know have no less than a 650DP, most have 750's and the ones producing big numbers have 850 DP's. Keep the Weiand much better than all the others except the Parker.

I prefer high lift cams with moderate duration for the same reason, but an LCA like 102-104 I'd be a bit dubious. The cam would need to be pretty small for it to work well. 108 is a good in between for a moderate to big solid cam.

Best cam I've invented on software atleast is 610/650 lift, 240/251@50" and LCA114
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