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Cam and Extractor choice for 351c rebuild

14K views 33 replies 12 participants last post by  STROKEXD 
#1 ·
Hey all,
currently i am building a 351c for my XE. it started out as a 302c project but decided for the 351 crank and rods.
What i need advice on is my cam choice and then extractors.
At this stage i am getting the block and heads dipped and cleaned.
Block is getting bored and honed to 30 thou.
Heads are getting hardened seats for ULP and Klined and new valves.
-standard 302 2v heads.
-Larry perkins ACL rebuild kit. 30"
-edelbrock performer manifold
-holley 650 vac sec
-351 aussie crank and rods
-Rollermaster premium timeing gear
-MSI ready to run dissy
-4spd borwarner and standard diff. not sure of ratio? rear drum brakes
I am not sure what else will factor on my choices.....
What comprssion ratio can i expect from this setup?

I know nothing really about what CAM i should use. I used a C.O.M.E form to get an idea on what to use. But COME cams are $$$$$.
"Use our CLS-235 grind in a solid cam for best results.
Cam only is $352.00
Lifters are $207.00 a set"
thats what they come back with. i was hoping to get cam and lifters for around $350-400. i have been told crow cams are good?

EXTRACTORS i will be going Packemakers. but i am not sure what style is best?...... into a 3" single pipe.
looking at Tri-y's # PH 4050 Pacemakers
Prim. Pipe 1 ¾" and Sec. Pipe 2"
Outlet (flanged) 2 ¼"

The car will be a daily driver and i want it at about 1200-5800 rpm. hopefully it will be strong.
can some pls suggest some parts and good brands to go for please. anything else recommened for a mild street rebuild?
Thanks in advance guys, hope it all made sence!
 
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#6 ·
I can only see two things that'll kill that engines prospects. They are the carb (but this is an option you take for fuel econ) and the diff gears. My guess is you have 2.92? Defeats the purpose of putting a decent sized cam in to restrict it with the carb and diff. You'd atleast bare minimum want a 3.23. 3.5 would more than likely be better. Keep the carb if you want just loose the diff gears unless your wanting highspeed runs like rallying or dirt track racing. On the street your car will be fast.

The second biggest hyd cam in the cam dynamics range runs from about 2200 or 2400rpm - 5400rpm. That said you'd get better fuel economy with the 3.5 gears than you would with 2.92's unless you live in an area that has nothing less than 100kph zones.

XBWGN's coupe engine is a perfect example of a good engine. Same goes for his wagon but thats another story. His coupe is a 302/650 DP holley carb/stock manifold/4spd single rail/3.5 rearend borg warner (I have a 3.5 9" here for him)/ stock exhaust manifolds and a twin 2 1/4" exhaust system. He cleaned up the exhaust port dags himself, the inlet ports are untouched and the valve sizes are factory. That gets 450k's country driving. Thats an engine that develops 163rwkw and can be daily driven without an issue. With the new diff thats an easy 14sec car, possibly 13sec? We've driven the coupe all over Victoria. That engine with an extra 49 cubic inches will do 200rwkw+ and be like driving Miss daisy.

I've even just driven my XB on a 400-450k round trip to Bendigo with a 4500rpm histall and 4.11 gears. My fuel econ is laughable at the moment. lol Even mine can be daily driven. Thats what I plan to do ;) A tune should make the fuel econ more bareable.

Best plan of action is don't listen to the people that say "oh I am going to do this and that". They normally never achieve anything nor test anything. Best to listen to the ones that have the engines and are using them for street duty.

You'll find the most odd things do work well. It's not supposed to but it does work. You'll be able to search these forums for combo's I've spoken about as I've stated complete engine combo's a few times.

I am looking @ doing a 408 clevo even though people say they are unreliable. I've seen otherwise. They just don't seeing Ford's go fast. I'll just build that up in my garage while I get use out of my 351.

Vulgarwolf has also had a few cheap reliable combos but he kept destroying them with silly things like bolts down the carb or detonation etc.

Otherwise it all looks good for a budget build.

Cheers,
Brenden
 
#7 ·
pracy said:
cool, can someone give me a bit more specific info. i have looked at the cam dynamics but there are a couple to choose. not sure what one will be best
Pracy,here are a couple of good selections from the cam dynamics range. 972836 or even 972874 will be adequate for your needs if it is going to be a daily driver.These are both hydraulic sticks and are very streetable grinds. I have just used the latter in a buildup .Don,t be fooled by their mild manners either.I ran both cams thru an engine anylyser program and both are capable of around 360 hp and around 400 ft lbs of torque.
I would also suggest a bit of reworking the heads. On an engine like this with these cams i prefer to use open chamber heads but the rest of your combo looks good. Don,t know how long that gearbox will last though.
 
#9 ·
pracy sounds like a good combo. With the 302 heads you won't need much cam to make it work really well for torque, so don't go too big on cam.

As Russ says a bit of work on the heads would do wonders.

Aim for mega torque. I hear the COME cams are good, albeit expensive. There is a reason why they cost more! Don't know about the CLS235 but their CLH 215 I would have thought would be better: -

HYDRAULIC: Moderate Idle. Hi velocity profile, 110 Lobe centre version of CLH 212. Extremely powerful short duration grind. Ideal everyday use. High performance grind which still delivers violent low-mid RPM torque and excellent top end without the need for ultra high compression ratios. RPM 1500 - 5000 Plus.

I prefer mechanical cams but you need to factor in the cost of a set of adjustable roller rockers.
 
#11 ·
pracy said:
Hey all,
currently i am building a 351c for my XE. it started out as a 302c project but decided for the 351 crank and rods.
What i need advice on is my cam choice and then extractors.
At this stage i am getting the block and heads dipped and cleaned.
Block is getting bored and honed to 30 thou.
Heads are getting hardened seats for ULP and Klined and new valves.
-standard 302 2v heads.
-Larry perkins ACL rebuild kit. 30"
-edelbrock performer manifold
-holley 650 vac sec
-351 aussie crank and rods
-Rollermaster premium timeing gear
-MSI ready to run dissy
-4spd borwarner and standard diff. not sure of ratio? rear drum brakes
I am not sure what else will factor on my choices.....
What comprssion ratio can i expect from this setup?

I know nothing really about what CAM i should use. I used a C.O.M.E form to get an idea on what to use. But COME cams are $$$$$.
"Use our CLS-235 grind in a solid cam for best results.
Cam only is $352.00
Lifters are $207.00 a set"
thats what they come back with. i was hoping to get cam and lifters for around $350-400. i have been told crow cams are good?

EXTRACTORS i will be going Packemakers. but i am not sure what style is best?...... into a 3" single pipe.
looking at Tri-y's # PH 4050 Pacemakers
Prim. Pipe 1 ¾" and Sec. Pipe 2"
Outlet (flanged) 2 ¼"

The car will be a daily driver and i want it at about 1200-5800 rpm. hopefully it will be strong.
can some pls suggest some parts and good brands to go for please. anything else recommened for a mild street rebuild?
Thanks in advance guys, hope it all made sence!
OK, well first thing I've got to say is nearly all the advice you'll get on here is advice worth considering. Although some are just opinions. Like Brenx said, try and decifer which are helpful and which are bs.

IMO you made a pretty good decision in ditching the 302 idea and slapping a set of 351 crank & rods in.

If your planning on cleaning up the heads, they should be ok for comp/ratio. Be careful otherwise. I've built 2 351's with perkins kits, and for the price, they are a reasonable kit. One was a 351/302 rod engine, the other was std/std 351. Only thing is, in both engines I used Felpro gaskets only by personal choice.

Inlet Manifold should be fine.

I'd consider a different carby. Possibly a 650 Spreadbore DP if you've got economy in mind. Tuned correctly/well, you will get good/reasonable economy of out any size carb within reason. Tuning is the key.

Diff gears would also be on my agenda for a mild street setup too. 3.23 or 3.45 are an easy cheap find for the borg warner.

You don't have to buy new extractors. but stick with tri-y's for good low-mid-high grunt. even no-namers can be ok.

Cam Dynamics do some good budget performance cams. I have used a fair few cam dynamics cams in a holden 6, 2 holden 8's, a chev, and 3 clevos all with mixed results. In their defence, I didn't fit them all, and so do not know wether they were correctly fitted or not. I have found this extremely important for performance related engines. Overall they have been fairly good cams.

I cannot comment on the COME cam options having never had much experience with them other than in Holdens. Yes, apparently they are expensive.

Crow do a very good camshaft and will custom grind for not much extra. I am running a crow cam in one of my clevos atm and I'm very happy with the power it makes. Reasonable price for the quality.

I think you've picked a fairly good operating rev range for street use also.

Remeber too, use good components. I mean the 4 things that will help an engine go well are compression, igntion, inlet and exhaust. they are the basics and if you have 1 bad link out of these 4, it can hinder your total performance.

Another thing is to weigh up what you eventually want from the engine. This will affect what advice is given.

Anyways, Good Luck with the build. Any more questions, just ask. :bsr:
 
#12 ·
http://www.comeracing.com/dualpurp.htm

225/227@ 50 thou
261/266 @ seat
.315/.317
110 LCA


MECHANICAL: Moderate idle. Brilliant daily use solid lifter cam, exceptional broad torque range in everyday V8s. Great performance street/strip cam in the smaller S.T-3 6 cyl. engines with optional adjustable valve trains. Hi velocity lobes provide excellent bottom end torque without sacrificing top end power. RPM Range 2200 - 5800. (Hot Lash: Int .022" Exh. .022")
 
#13 ·
xbgs351 said:
http://www.comeracing.com/dualpurp.htm

225/227@ 50 thou
261/266 @ seat
.315/.317
110 LCA


MECHANICAL: Moderate idle. Brilliant daily use solid lifter cam, exceptional broad torque range in everyday V8s. Great performance street/strip cam in the smaller S.T-3 6 cyl. engines with optional adjustable valve trains. Hi velocity lobes provide excellent bottom end torque without sacrificing top end power. RPM Range 2200 - 5800. (Hot Lash: Int .022" Exh. .022")
Sounds like a nice cam that one for a street engine. I'd go with that if the budget allowed it.
 
#14 ·
TTNOS8 said:
........... try and decifer which are helpful and which are bs.
:neverlear Well that statement is BS. I don't think any advice here other than this statement is BS. All opinions are helpful and come from peoples experience. Some people are more experienced than others. No-one would give you any BS but maybe their advice could be a bit off if their experience is limited. So suggest you look for the common denominators in advice.


TTNOS8 said:
........... I'd consider a different carby. Possibly a 650 Spreadbore DP if you've got economy in mind. Tuned correctly/well, you will get good/reasonable economy of out any size carb within reason. Tuning is the key.
The spreadbores are an economy style carby for sure. But generally they will produce less power compared to a sq bore. My view is a properly set-up sq bore can get close to the same economy and is a much better idea for any clevo. They also seem to last longer.


TTNOS8 said:
......Diff gears would also be on my agenda for a mild street setup too. 3.23 or 3.45 are an easy cheap find for the borg warner.
Disagree whole heartedly. Having gone from 2:77 gears to 3.23 gears myself can say what works best is use what suits the style of motor. As the planned build is nearly stock (it's not "mild street") and big torque is the aim, and the end use is an everyday driver, go for the taller ratio. You will be happier in the end. Massive torque and tall ratio's make for a beautiful driving experience.


TTNOS8 said:
......Remeber too, use good components. I mean the 4 things that will help an engine go well are compression, igntion, inlet and exhaust. they are the basics and if you have 1 bad link out of these 4, it can hinder your total performance.
For sure great engine build advice but remember also he is building a stock or near stock combo here. I wouldn't take any of this on.


TTNOS8 said:
......Another thing is to weigh up what you eventually want from the engine. This will affect what advice is given.
He has "The car will be a daily driver"...:bugi:
 
#15 ·
STROKEXD said:
:neverlear Well that statement is BS. I don't think any advice here other than this statement is BS. All opinions are helpful and come from peoples experience. Some people are more experienced than others. No-one would give you any BS but maybe their advice could be a bit off if their experience is limited. So suggest you look for the common denominators in advice.



The spreadbores are an economy style carby for sure. But generally they will produce less power compared to a sq bore. My view is a properly set-up sq bore can get close to the same economy and is a much better idea for any clevo. They also seem to last longer.



Disagree whole heartedly. Having gone from 2:77 gears to 3.23 gears myself can say what works best is use what suits the style of motor. As the planned build is nearly stock (it's not "mild street") and big torque is the aim, and the end use is an everyday driver, go for the taller ratio. You will be happier in the end. Massive torque and tall ratio's make for a beautiful driving experience.



For sure great engine build advice but remember also he is building a stock or near stock combo here. I wouldn't take any of this on.



He has "The car will be a daily driver"...:bugi:

I think you are being way too harsh here. A 'daily driver' can be anything... some daily drivers are stock..some are 12 second cars. The right mild combo will go like a cut cat .. the wrong 'race' combo will be all spitting lumpy idle and run like a dog exactly because something is out of whack with the rest of it.

For the record I see a lot of BS ( in my opinion anyway ) in this section (and others) but people can make up their own minds, that's what a discussion forum is all about. People may not give BS intentionally but it does happen.
 
#16 ·
TTNOS8 said:
Diff gears would also be on my agenda for a mild street setup too. 3.23 or 3.45 are an easy cheap find for the borg warner.

:
I think that 3.23 is one excellent daily driving ratio. I had this in my ex police XD for years, and gave me the best of both worlds. I could still "just" pull 160km in second, and 200 in 3rd with good pick up too. If you want to set new speed records around your home town, then stick with the pos 2.77.
 
#17 ·
xacoupe said:
I think you are being way too harsh here. A 'daily driver' can be anything... some daily drivers are stock..some are 12 second cars. The right mild combo will go like a cut cat .. the wrong 'race' combo will be all spitting lumpy idle and run like a dog exactly because something is out of whack with the rest of it.

For the record I see a lot of BS ( in my opinion anyway ) in this section (and others) but people can make up their own minds, that's what a discussion forum is all about. People may not give BS intentionally but it does happen.
But look at the specs. In this case, which is the case that matters, "Daily Driver" doesn't mean a 12 second enterprise.

-and-

Yep.
 
#18 ·
STROKEXD said:
russxr67 are you buildng motors for a job, Where are you working in Perth if you don't mind me asking?
No mate i don,t build motors for a living. I do what i can from my garage in the burbs. I don,t think i would have the same passion if i had to do it for a job everyday. At the moment i,m half way thru doing a full resto on an XR fairmont and so this is where i,m at. At the moment i,m still experimenting and trying to learn more about the outer limits of 2v,s.
 
#19 ·
STROKEXD said:
But look at the specs. In this case, which is the case that matters, "Daily Driver" doesn't mean a 12 second enterprise.

Yep.
he doesnt say whether he does or doesnt want 12 second 1/4s .. he says daily driver.. what he calls a daily driver, or the limits of what he is wanting to drive daily is what matters, not what you or I interpret it as... so never assume.
 
#20 ·
....within reason - although some could classify a 12 sec car as a daily driver, it would be far from that.

IMO daily driver =

- able to be stuck in traffic without overheating
- no hi-stall required because of too lumpy cam (read: drivability)
- fuel economy
- run on regular unleaded (read: decent compression ratio)
- reliability
- fit under the bonnet
- possibly run aircon

Now how many of the above would you have to cross off to run a ~ 13 sec 1/4 in an XE?
 
#21 ·
xacoupe said:
he doesnt say whether he does or doesnt want 12 second 1/4s .. he says daily driver.. what he calls a daily driver, or the limits of what he is wanting to drive daily is what matters, not what you or I interpret it as... so never assume.
Ar cough.. Seems to me if he did want '12 second quarters' he would have said that.

No assumption by me in reading what was written and answering on that basis.

Pretty obvious the engine specs define it as stock or a near stock motor combo. Doesn't look like a 12 second car to me - assumptions just don't come into it.

Funny you say "so never assume".
 
#22 ·
9psi EB said:
....within reason - although some could classify a 12 sec car as a daily driver, it would be far from that.

IMO daily driver =

- able to be stuck in traffic without overheating
- no hi-stall required because of too lumpy cam (read: drivability)
- fuel economy
- run on regular unleaded (read: decent compression ratio)
- reliability
- fit under the bonnet
- possibly run aircon

Now how many of the above would you have to cross off to run a ~ 13 sec 1/4 in an XE?
I have to run 98 unleaded with 10.32:1 comp, apart from that I think I qualify 9psi EB
-I tow in traffic all summer
-I used to run a 2100 Rpm highstall until I blew the auto on nitrous. I now run a completely stock auto but feel the small highstall actually improved drivablity. My van now "hunts" a little when stationary in drive.
-Fuel economy, well not good but no worse then when it was stock we are talking 5.8 litres.
-Reliablity hell yes, busted 2 diffs and an auto but the clevo has not missed a beat
- All fits under the bonnet
- Racing cars don't have air con lol

pracy I run similar spec's to the ones you have posted. My 302 heads have been ported and the chambers polished. My motor is .060 over (don't try this at home kids!), and I run a 650dp on a performer.
Cam is a Blue racer CD214-52, same as a Crow 21665. It is a mild street cam but does require improved valve springs, as will any performance cam you choose which is important to remember.
Pacemaker tri-y's and a 3.23:1 LSD

My van is very streetable, you would not pick it as being modified! And it will run 13's all day, 100hp shot of nitrous( quite ok on a stock bottem end) and your into the 12's
Hardly a challange for a 351 Cleveland!!
 
#23 ·
Personally for a daily driver I would run straight gas. It keeps the running costs down. This is especially important with fuel prices set to rise. It also allows you to meet emmisions standards which you won't do with an Edelbrock manifold and holley carb.

An XD or XE 351 running straight gas with a mild engine is a very nice car to drive. They perform well and cost very little to run.
 
#24 ·
OK then

Quote: Originally Posted by TTNOS8
........... try and decifer which are helpful and which are bs.

Well that statement is BS. I don't think any advice here other than this statement is BS. All opinions are helpful and come from peoples experience. Some people are more experienced than others. No-one would give you any BS but maybe their advice could be a bit off if their experience is limited. So suggest you look for the common denominators in advice.



Quote: Originally Posted by TTNOS8
........... I'd consider a different carby. Possibly a 650 Spreadbore DP if you've got economy in mind. Tuned correctly/well, you will get good/reasonable economy of out any size carb within reason. Tuning is the key.

The spreadbores are an economy style carby for sure. But generally they will produce less power compared to a sq bore. My view is a properly set-up sq bore can get close to the same economy and is a much better idea for any clevo. They also seem to last longer.



Quote: Originally Posted by TTNOS8
......Diff gears would also be on my agenda for a mild street setup too. 3.23 or 3.45 are an easy cheap find for the borg warner.


Disagree whole heartedly. Having gone from 2:77 gears to 3.23 gears myself can say what works best is use what suits the style of motor. As the planned build is nearly stock (it's not "mild street") and big torque is the aim, and the end use is an everyday driver, go for the taller ratio. You will be happier in the end. Massive torque and tall ratio's make for a beautiful driving experience.



Quote: Originally Posted by TTNOS8
......Remeber too, use good components. I mean the 4 things that will help an engine go well are compression, igntion, inlet and exhaust. they are the basics and if you have 1 bad link out of these 4, it can hinder your total performance.

For sure great engine build advice but remember also he is building a stock or near stock combo here. I wouldn't take any of this on.



Quote: Originally Posted by TTNOS8
......Another thing is to weigh up what you eventually want from the engine. This will affect what advice is given.

He has "The car will be a daily driver"...
Where the hell did all this come from??? :fraz:

i want it at about 1200-5800 rpm. hopefully it will be strong.
can some pls suggest some parts and good brands to go for please. anything else recommened for a mild street rebuild?
Thanks in advance guys, hope it all made sence!
Does this say anything here???

nearly all the advice you'll get on here is advice worth considering
What more do I say? I love coming on here and hearing of other peoples doings.

OK, well first thing I've got to say is nearly all the advice you'll get on here is advice worth considering. Although some are just opinions. Like Brenx said, try and decifer which are helpful and which are bs.

IMO you made a pretty good decision in ditching the 302 idea and slapping a set of 351 crank & rods in.

If your planning on cleaning up the heads, they should be ok for comp/ratio. Be careful otherwise. I've built 2 351's with perkins kits, and for the price, they are a reasonable kit. One was a 351/302 rod engine, the other was std/std 351. Only thing is, in both engines I used Felpro gaskets only by personal choice.

Inlet Manifold should be fine.

I'd consider a different carby. Possibly a 650 Spreadbore DP if you've got economy in mind. Tuned correctly/well, you will get good/reasonable economy of out any size carb within reason. Tuning is the key.

Diff gears would also be on my agenda for a mild street setup too. 3.23 or 3.45 are an easy cheap find for the borg warner.

You don't have to buy new extractors. but stick with tri-y's for good low-mid-high grunt. even no-namers can be ok.

Cam Dynamics do some good budget performance cams. I have used a fair few cam dynamics cams in a holden 6, 2 holden 8's, a chev, and 3 clevos all with mixed results. In their defence, I didn't fit them all, and so do not know wether they were correctly fitted or not. I have found this extremely important for performance related engines. Overall they have been fairly good cams.

I cannot comment on the COME cam options having never had much experience with them other than in Holdens. Yes, apparently they are expensive.

Crow do a very good camshaft and will custom grind for not much extra. I am running a crow cam in one of my clevos atm and I'm very happy with the power it makes. Reasonable price for the quality.

I think you've picked a fairly good operating rev range for street use also.

Remeber too, use good components. I mean the 4 things that will help an engine go well are compression, igntion, inlet and exhaust. they are the basics and if you have 1 bad link out of these 4, it can hinder your total performance.

Another thing is to weigh up what you eventually want from the engine. This will affect what advice is given.

Anyways, Good Luck with the build. Any more questions, just ask.
Well I thought I was giving some advice that in my opinion can be decifered as to wether it is useful to pracy or not. Why else would I say it. Everyone's opinion is different. That's why people suggest different things.

pracy will ultimately make the end decision.

STROKEXD,
Really, have a look through your reply closely. One minute your saying not to take any advice, then you say that even though spreadbore generally are economy based, you'd advise a squarebore as the make more power, then you try telling him he is not building a 'mild street' motor when that is exactly what he said. then you tell him NOT to take any any good engine building advice!! :WTF: ludicrous.

Lets not put figures like '12 sec 1/4' into the equation here either.

STOKEXD,
I'm usually the first person to agree with you on these forums, most of the time you speak of experiences you've had and your knowledge has been helpful to many I'm sure, But back your bus up! We are all on a forum here where we try and help each other. you trying to pick shite and read in between the lines WAY too much doesn't help pracy much at all.

Just easy up, we are all on the same side. THE CLEVELAND TEAM!!
 
#25 ·
9psi EB said:
....within reason - although some could classify a 12 sec car as a daily driver, it would be far from that.

IMO daily driver =

- able to be stuck in traffic without overheating
- no hi-stall required because of too lumpy cam (read: drivability)
- fuel economy
- run on regular unleaded (read: decent compression ratio)
- reliability
- fit under the bonnet
- possibly run aircon

Now how many of the above would you have to cross off to run a ~ 13 sec 1/4 in an XE?
Yeah even though it is probably more the exception than the rule, 12's with the combo you speak of is easily manageable.

- able to be stuck in traffic without overheating - Check

- no hi-stall required because of too lumpy cam (read: drivability) - Check

- fuel economy - Check

- run on regular unleaded (read: decent compression ratio) - Check

- reliability - Check

- fit under the bonnet - Check

- possibly run aircon - Check

Workhorse is the perfect example. Daily Driven XD Work Van. 4-Poster Bullbar, 215 street tyres, runs 12 on Pump.

Although I'm only on the verge of 12's, I would consider my engine as VERY streetable. I assembled it myself, it was a reasonably budget based build that didn't cost much at all. Very good on fuel, in fact better than mates' EL XR8's, VS V6's, and my VS Senator even.

With a shot of n2o should see me into the mid low 12's, possibly 11's with a stick box, hydraulic cammed, 2V headed, tri y, std bottom end clevo.

Not trying to pick shite at you or blow my trumpet, just making a valid point.

Cleveland's Rule!
 
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