Ford Forums banner

combo settled on

3K views 17 replies 9 participants last post by  azza 
#1 ·
New combo for my wagon settled on,
351 cleveland stock bore 6"rod, flat top pistons moly rings, fully prepped 4ma crank, chamfered oil gallerys, stock oil pump, f248 solid cam & lifters, double row chain 2v heads with larger stainless ferrea valves isky springs, funnelweb manifold 780 vac sec holley came of a cobra jet big block, c10 shift kitted running a 3700 stall, b&m pro ratchet and 31 spline 3.7 geared 9 inch.
AZZA
 
#2 ·
azza said:
New combo for my wagon settled on,
351 cleveland stock bore 6"rod, flat top pistons moly rings, fully prepped 4ma crank, chamfered oil gallerys, stock oil pump, f248 solid cam & lifters, double row chain 2v heads with larger stainless ferrea valves isky springs, funnelweb manifold 780 vac sec holley came of a cobra jet big block, c10 shift kitted running a 3700 stall, b&m pro ratchet and 31 spline 3.7 geared 9 inch.
AZZA
For that camshaft, I'd sell/trade the 780 VS for an 750-800 CFM DP. You can probably sell the 780 to a US restorer and buy a brand new DP for the returns. I personally don't like VS carbs on a single plenum inlet with a fairly big (duration) solid lifter camshaft. It makes tuning the secondaries more trouble than it is worth, IMO. A DP will be easier to tune and make work right for your combination, I believe.

I would look at going +.010" on your bore as this will help unshroud your larger valves better. I would recommend forged pistons. I take it that you're talking about a 302C rod?

:davis:
 
#4 ·
with so many variables with engines my engine builder has been building clevelands for 30 years and achieved a 11.5 sec quarter through a bullnose toploader and aspirated and a 3.7 diff only difference to his engine was a bg 850 speed demon, secondly a well known mackay drag racer is using a stock bore 351 and 6 inch combo his times went from 11,s to 10,s with only a rod change (going to 6 inch) i was skeptical at first but i have seen this guy rev his own engine to 8500 rpm and the engine has been together for 8 years and has been re ringe once! sometimes people make the mistake of buying say 8 thousand dollars worth of parts and spending 200 bucks to assembe the engine when you can with the right knowledge and expertise some one old school can perform awesome engine building without having a speed catalogue worth of parts inside. just my thoughts, when i dyno the engine i will post the figures and when i run it at the drags at willowbank i will post the time slips not making any claims to times but i am expecting low 12 street trim
AZZA
 
#5 ·
Your low 12's are possible. I ran similar but 750dp/3500rpm stall and 4.11 gears. With a completely trashed auto I ran 12.95@105.96. That was using cast iron 2V heads (494hp flowed). Even with the auto slipping it still managed 227rwkw (close enough to 230). I'm not sure how you'll go with street tyres but you'll have fun anyway ;)

Brenden
 
#7 ·
I had 3.5 gears for some years, but did go to 3.9. I think the 3.9 with my 14 inch wheels is nearly too low for street driving. I think if i had it over again, i would go 3.7:1, as these still pretty short with small wheels.
 
#8 ·
azza said:
New combo for my wagon settled on,
351 cleveland stock bore 6"rod, flat top pistons moly rings, fully prepped 4ma crank, chamfered oil gallerys, stock oil pump, f248 solid cam & lifters, double row chain 2v heads with larger stainless ferrea valves isky springs, funnelweb manifold 780 vac sec holley came of a cobra jet big block, c10 shift kitted running a 3700 stall, b&m pro ratchet and 31 spline 3.7 geared 9 inch.
AZZA
No doubt people would have been on your case about oil restrictor kits. I've heard a lot of theory's about this. Some blame the sump mainly due to oil drain back under hard acceleration. Chevs don't get this , the pums at the back. One other alternative I've heard, which comes from jack Rousch is to reshape the oil pump gallery to reduce output pressure. Apparently George Wegener does this. How much it costs I'm not sure. Don't know if this helps at all. I do know a few people who have not worried about this oiling issue and both of them wrecked there bottom ends. From what I've managed to learn about clevos that combo should haul. Maybe low 12's with slicks??
 
#9 ·
hi duke my engine assembler believes in using the stock oil pump which he modifies (his secret) he believes the hi volume pumps send to much oil up top and has a interesting theroy on rocker covers as well. from what his ute has run at willowbank which is mid 11 using same combo as mine but larger carb and he has a bullnose toploader and running 3.7 gears as my aim is to drive to the track which is around 1 hour from toowoomba i am sticking with 3.7 gears and a 3700 stall, guess only time will tell, i hope to run the week after the nationals in november which will be 13 november or i will take her down for a wednesday night meet.
 
#10 ·
azza said:
New combo for my wagon settled on,
351 cleveland stock bore 6"rod, flat top pistons moly rings, fully prepped 4ma crank, chamfered oil gallerys, stock oil pump, f248 solid cam & lifters, double row chain 2v heads with larger stainless ferrea valves isky springs, funnelweb manifold 780 vac sec holley came of a cobra jet big block, c10 shift kitted running a 3700 stall, b&m pro ratchet and 31 spline 3.7 geared 9 inch.
AZZA
azza,

couple of suggestions maybe worth considering above.

I'm guessing you've found a very good standard block to be able to hone and reuse at standard without any gap/clearance issues?

The 302C rod I've found to have good results.

When you say stock oil pump, its not really stock if is remaking the insides. He obviously has had some experience there.

Have the heads had any work done? ie. porting, etc?

780 VS sounds like the only little bit of a downfall so far. As suggested above, I'd think a 750DP or even 800DP maybe would suit better, but thats only my opinion.

Whats size/type tyres you going to run? I personally like the 3.7 ratio but all depending on tyre size. Good all-rounder ratio.

Also, wouldn't a bit larger convertor work to your advantage more here? Just if you have drags in mind, I'd think a 4000+ convertor would suit more?

Anyways, sounds like a nice mildish engine that could produce some good numbers at the track. Good Luck! ;)
 
#11 ·
thanks for reply, yeah i should have wrote a modified stock oil pump. I am running 275/50/15 T/A's on a 8.5 inch convo pro for strip i may change to 265/50 mcreary's. On the Q of stall i could probably go bigger but i think it realy depends on once again who makes the stall converter and if you truthfully tell them your intended application and all specs of the engine and the vehicle. For instance friend has a 393 cleve stroker with f260 and all the fruit in a xw falcon has run a best of 11.2 at willowbank original stall was a 4500 from the converter shop in brisbane but it bogged the car down he has also been through 3 c4 boxes as well. currently he is using a 5800 stall in c4 and has only run a 11.9 .7 of his best and car is now unstreetable, i consulted a few reputable tranny builders and came up with a c10 with a 3700 stall i am keeping my store converter diameter to myself for now but if combo succesfull i will share the lot eith board users low 12"S street trim through my T/A's at first full zaust and driven one hour to the track. I will post my times, fuel economy down to track, engine rpm at 100 cliks and overall engine behaviour and temps.
AZZA
 
#12 ·
Hi guy's. Pretty new to this group, but not new to piecing good combos together. Been spinning the spanners on Windsors and Clevelands since the early 80's.

One thing that has been disturbing me when I have been reading most of these threads, particularly with respect to camshaft selection, is the total lack of 'quoted' cylinder head flow specs. How in the hell are you going to know what camshaft will be the best for your combination if you don't know what CFM at what valve lift your heads work best?

Camshaft manufacturers go to great lenghts to design cams for a particular reason folks. Why do you think that some will offer more, or less duration at the same valve lift? Why do you thing cam companies such as Comp Cams offer a custom grind service?

Guys, if your aim is to get the best possible performance out of your engines, please DO NOT ass pluck cam selection. Get your heads flow tested and make the selection based on research. You may just find that you pick up more torque and HP using the smaller cam.

Any wombat can get a car to run quick, but it takes dedication, research and knowledge to break records and set benchmarks. Otherwise you're just wasting money, losing HP and playing follow the leader.

No offence to anyone, just thought I'd bring it up. Seeing that this is a publc forum and all :)
 
#13 ·
Are you suggesting that you do all your headwork before choosing a camshaft, when the camshaft is the heart of the engine. When you read heads flow ??? amount of horsepower does that mean the engine realy makes that horsepower and will produce a low et, look at crane solid cams for instance when choosing any one of 3 cams f238 f246 f260 they yes indeed have done there homework and choosing one of these cams is a hell of a lot easier than performing headwork and cheaper, my heads will be flowed and ported they run ferrera valves and roller rockers and isky springs set up to run on premium. Most of my Q & A's have been centered around the difference some board members have experienced between the f260 & f246 as i had narrowed it down to these two cams. Also my other thread is in regards to how thesecams respond in a stroked engine and i would have to say that the response was excellent. You cant go to a speed shop and say can i try out that 780 lift cam you have there? just to see if it does rev to 8000 in your stock clevo. My initial engine combo had mistakes that wont be repeated and mu engine builder has been building cleves for 30 years and has the numbers on the board, and i am relying on this knowldege for my engine,. I also have total respect for TOCA, but my budget does not include sheetmetal manifolds,rollercams,chi heads,twin dominators and the like. I do applaud there times as well but 95% of cleveland owners want the best performance out of using single/plane/carb engines amd cany afford the above. To my mentality it is more exciting to see a car drive home from the track under its own power after posting a 11 sec pass with little change to the way it ran that pass.
My thoughts
AZZA
 
#16 ·
Seems like there are a few people confused here by the term 'flowed'. When someone refers to the term 'head flow, it means the maximum theoretical HP potential that the heads can deliver. Nothing more than measuring the amount of flow at various levels of valve lift, (starts at .0" lift to usually .700" lift for street engines) usually measured on a machine called a flow bench using water. Most modern 'Superflow' flow benches use 28hg of water for the measurement.

For instance, I have a set of Chrysler heads here that have been ported, larger valves, 11/32 valve stem diameter, nail head intakes, tulip exhaust valves (we'll get more into valves later if you want) etc, etc. They flow 280CFM in the intake port at .650" lift, which equates to approximately 575 HP potential. These heads will be run on a 408ci stroker with 11.3:1 static compression ratio. They're a little down in the exhaust flow and a little slow to get to 280CFM. So a cam with more lift and or duration on the exhaust may be required. Maybe a split duraton cam to aid in cylinder filling and exhaust evacuation...

Now it would be stupid of me to select a camshaft that was best used in an engine with a maximum of 245CFM intake flow and low compression. Or running a cam based on a recommendation that someone else has had success with, without asking about his heads, valves, manifold, compression, carburation, gearing, converter, his weight, the weight of his car, his header primary and secondary sizes and total length, tyre height, etc, manual or Auto...Get what I am saying here?

You're not going to know what you're heads are doing until you get them checked. Seriously, if you are considering having your heads ported ensure that you get the flow sheets for the heads and or you know exactly what they flow at given valve lift. That way if you want to change the combo down the track you're gonna be able to make appropriate selections on cam and compression combinations based on true accurate figures. Not bullshit "She'd be about 10.1 mate, heads flow about 500"

So all I am saying here with respect to camshafts, which by the way is NOT the heart of your engine (Your heads are) is before guessing about what's best for YOUR particullar engine is FIND OUT WHAT YOUR HEADS FLOW. Get the right cam the first time based on the flow of your heads and the other variants as described above. You may find that Comp Cams, Erson, Crower, Lunati, Crane, Crow, etc may make a cam that will fit your engine exactly. Anything less and you're robbing yourself of good HP.

Sure recommendations do count for something, but the question I put to you is do you want the best HP for your current combination, or are you content knowing that you may have an extra 50+ HP waiting to be unleashed by just doing a little basic research?

Lastly, TOCA don't just produce sheet metal intake engines mate. My recommendation was to talk to Mick Campbell and pick his brains. He know's what it's all about. There's one thing that will speak volumes and that is experience... If not Mick, then anyone else that understands that piecing an engine together is more than just a set of pistons, a comon cam and manifold combo. But I suppose that's what seperates the men from the boy's, I guess. Depends on how seriously you take the subject of building an engine or if you're just content on being a follower... Makes no difference how you want to play, I just wanted to help. Obviously I was wrong and should just shut the frig up and keep everything to myslef....

Troy
 
#17 ·
Settle down big fella. What you say is correct and isnt expesive or exotic, but the norm in building a good combination that works. A lot of guys here know exactly that, and some could'nt care and that is fine too. There is guys that want hear, so explain to them and dont worry about the people that are happy doing what they're doing. If poeple don't know be patient and help if you want.
 
#18 ·
this board is just that a board, i dont think you understand what i am trying to say i have nothing but admiration for toca and mansweto and redcliffe dyno etc but what they are doing is pushing the envelope raising the bar and developing a lot of there own parts, a aspirated windsor/clev doing 8 sec 1/4 mile is fantastic but it does not equate to what the average guy at the strip is doing,by that i mean full bodied registered street driven cars. that is what joe average is spending his money on. i do appreciate your advice on flow figures and camshaft choice etc it is all takin aboard mate. so my advice is you dont have to shut the frig up at all. i havent offended you and you havent offended me we just have a difference off oppion like say howard/latham
AZZA
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top