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Let's talk Clevo blocks.

7K views 30 replies 18 participants last post by  FPVGT 
#1 ·
Hi there,

We've had this discussion before but i'd like to hear everyone's feedback on the several types of Clevo blocks out there.

The ones of interest to me are the:

Pillow Blocks
Black Clevo blocks (out of XE falcons)
Nascar
CobraJet
Early Clevo blocks (XA's etc.)

Basically all i require now is a engine block for my motor.

I know the basics about the aforementioned blocks but i'd like to see people's opinions regarding the strengths, peoples ACTUAL experience and any stories of failures or weaknesses these blocks may have.

My plan is to go for a Pillow or "Black" block with the required grout filling and mains caps work....

I'd love to hear people's feedback, see pics etc.

Thanks in advance

shane
 
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#2 ·
I can't remember what block I have but I do think it's an XB block. JG34 no I've got roughly 525hp on tap. I had 450hp before. I plan to do a 408 stroker sometime in the future to go under the 218cc CHI 3V's. I plan 600hp+. No special blocks etc. I am a tad iffy on the reliability of street use on the 408 but I'll test it anyway ;)

Brenden
 
#3 ·
I think mine is XE but not sure, all I have been told is that the earlier blocks have higher nickel content, not sure about the other differences tho. You have mentioned grout filling your block, would you ever consider this for street. another member said that the grout blocks can have oil temp issues.

What is meant by "pillow" block???

To Brenx, the rod aspect ratio on those 408 strokers is not going to be very good.
I considered going to 408, but many people said that it would be unreliable and that around 390 cubes is the safe max, would be interesting to see how much hp it will have and where the peak TQ is!!
 
#4 ·
frankly I cant see any street motor ever needing anything more than a well prepared standard block ... but to each their own.
I would either have a NASCAR block or standard.. nothing in between, at least at extra expense.
I revved an early XB cleveland over 7000 for numerous years on 2 bolt mains and it never needed anything more than new bearings.
 
#5 ·
I would add that the black block first appeared in the XD, so all XD's have this block also. 90% sure there was no change in the XE (not counting the few 'pillow' blocks in the later XE runs).

My other point is you can still get stuck with a problem with nearly any type of block - because of the sand casting process there will always be a degree of drift so all blocks will vary to some degree.

So getting whatever block your considering checked out thoroughly is essential.

I was fortunate and my black block has plenty of wall thickness and all the galleries are where they should be. Same block has now been used in 3 rebuilds - all motors were cained mercilessly and no problems.

Brenx, another point on the 408 consideration - I've been told by a few that one issue is they literally feel like a big block to drive ie a bit lazy. Whereas a smaller stroker will still sing and sting like a clevo. Makes sense when you look at the stroke/bore ratio...
 
#6 ·
My motor won't be a "street" motor, there's no way i'd build a 550-600hp roller cleveland without grout filling it... personally i dont trust the strength of the block without it.

I'll be running alcohol and racing the car... if it ever sees the street it will be me going down the road to say hello to a mate and coming home. This will be a very rare occurance as basically after each run i need to bleed the fuel system and drop the oil.

I've been told that if you part fill the block there are no extra cooling issues for street driven engines...

In regards to choosing a block, my engine builder told me that it's not uncommon to have to go and inspect 4-5 seemingly ideal blocks (virgin bore late model blocks) before settling on a ideal candidate for a high hp motor, hence why my search has taken AGES.

My motor that came out was in fact a black XD block in excellent condition, but it was already @ 30 thou... spewin.

I too am questioning the requirement for a 4 bolt conversion... Has anyone ever looked at manufacturing a main girdle?
 
#9 ·
Hey davis... would you care to sell one at any stage? Got any unbored CJ blocks you could spare?

How much would it be to ship to California... or Australia... would it be realistic?

thanks!

shane


PS. grout filling is a method of filling the water jackets with grout to make the block stronger. It does of course hinder water passage.. thus cooling.
 
#11 ·
ltd351 said:
I think mine is XE but not sure, all I have been told is that the earlier blocks have higher nickel content, not sure about the other differences tho. You have mentioned grout filling your block, would you ever consider this for street. another member said that the grout blocks can have oil temp issues.

What is meant by "pillow" block???

To Brenx, the rod aspect ratio on those 408 strokers is not going to be very good.
I considered going to 408, but many people said that it would be unreliable and that around 390 cubes is the safe max, would be interesting to see how much hp it will have and where the peak TQ is!!
hey guys in response to said comments bout the 408 cube strokers i have put one together except using a 351 w virgin black block and for added insurance had a stud girdle put in. The kit i used was a eagle kit with the nodular 4" crank eagle H-beam rods 6.2 in length and a set of matching Arias forged pistons. As far as unrealiability thats untrue the engines the only realible piece of driveline i havent had anyproblems with ( besides it rattling lose bolts everywhere) it runs on pump fuel with no pinging never ever gets hot i hardly ever turn the thermos on anymore and with it being a "bit doughy down low like a big block" its absolutly not true mine smokes the tyres on the lightest off acceleration and reaches peak power and torgue at 6400 rpm (459rwhp and 530lbs/ft of torque) :)
 

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#14 ·
600-650max so 550 would be safe.

about stud girdles, you can get a 1/4 inch girdle for about $199, its made of Bisaloy 80, which I have been told is just a very hard steel. A few performance shops have said that in a clevo the stud girdle is more beneficial than 4 bolt mains??maybe because the clevo is fairly strong in that area already, all the bathurst spec motors were 2bolt mains.
 
#16 ·
XD408 said:
hey guys in response to said comments bout the 408 cube strokers i have put one together except using a 351 w virgin black block and for added insurance had a stud girdle put in. The kit i used was a eagle kit with the nodular 4" crank eagle H-beam rods 6.2 in length and a set of matching Arias forged pistons. As far as unrealiability thats untrue the engines the only realible piece of driveline i havent had anyproblems with ( besides it rattling lose bolts everywhere) it runs on pump fuel with no pinging never ever gets hot i hardly ever turn the thermos on anymore and with it being a "bit doughy down low like a big block" its absolutly not true mine smokes the tyres on the lightest off acceleration and reaches peak power and torgue at 6400 rpm (459rwhp and 530lbs/ft of torque) :)
Well I'm sure you've got the right combo and it works as you say, just that I've heard many say that you don't get a crisp throttle response with more than 400 cubes in a clevo. Maybe they put the wrong gear in it...
 
#17 ·
Iv'e thought that the bigger cubes in a cleveland the crisper is would be due to the better airspeed as the cubes rise. Sure there is a limit, but the cleveland heads have allways been renowned of being "big". The same goes for the larger alloys of CHI in the 218cc and AFD's 2v's large cross sectional area. Maybe i'm wrong, but sometimes i think too much.
 
#18 ·
STROKEXD said:
Well I'm sure you've got the right combo and it works as you say, just that I've heard many say that you don't get a crisp throttle response with more than 400 cubes in a clevo. Maybe they put the wrong gear in it...
I think that would have more to do with ur head selection ie.. port size than the cubic inch capacity but i guess the incorrect use of valvetrain gear or cam choice could have the same effect. Im currently running a spacer on my manifold which has effected the throttle response mainly in the low revs but gained more HP with it on, on the dyno so like xdclevo said it may have more to do with having the incorrect manifold ie.. airspeed as without this spacer the throttle response on mine was impressive or so my engine builder said. So dont be discouraged from going for a big cube clevo or windsor u know the old saying "theres no substitute for cubic inches",
 
#19 ·
XD408 said:
I think that would have more to do with ur head selection ie.. port size than the cubic inch capacity but i guess the incorrect use of valvetrain gear or cam choice could have the same effect. Im currently running a spacer on my manifold which has effected the throttle response mainly in the low revs but gained more HP with it on, on the dyno so like xdclevo said it may have more to do with having the incorrect manifold ie.. airspeed as without this spacer the throttle response on mine was impressive or so my engine builder said. So dont be discouraged from going for a big cube clevo or windsor u know the old saying "theres no substitute for cubic inches",
I don,t know how anyone could call the power of a 400+ cubic inch engine 'lazy'. The torque produced by these engines will blow you away.Anyone who has ever been in a big block will vouch for that.
 
#20 ·
xr8_sprint said:
Hey davis... would you care to sell one at any stage? Got any unbored CJ blocks you could spare?

How much would it be to ship to California... or Australia... would it be realistic?

thanks!

shane


PS. grout filling is a method of filling the water jackets with grout to make the block stronger. It does of course hinder water passage.. thus cooling.
I would not be too concerned about the cj blocks as you will probably find like most clevo blocks there is little difference in bore thickness beteween the varieties available.Some special blocks may have the 4 bolt caps but this is the only difference as the standard block can easily be modified to take aftermarket caps if so desired.
I know of one place that has an XE192450 block but here again you would want to check many details before parting with the cash required to secure it. Figure on 2000 minimum here.
I would definatley fill the block in this application.I,ve done so before up to the bottom of the core plugs with no adverse affects during street driving.
The main cap girdle seems to be a good idea.Whether or not you will require it at the 550 hp level is questionable but it certainly can,t hurt and at 199 bucks is a lot cheaper than converting to 4 bolt mains and probably just as strong.
 
#21 ·
Racer said:
No street cleveland needs either a 4 bolt block or grouting. Nor do the majority of the race ones.
I think that I finally found a point where I might disagree a bit with you Racer. I think that "needs" is relative. It is relative to what you're starting out with on the particular block you have in front of you. For example, it could easily be argued that a .040" over block being raced should probably be grouted. Whether it "needs" it is a matter of what happens when/if it fails.

A lot of people say that the 4-bolts are no better/worse than a 2-bolt block. I disagree. I believe that a good 4-bolt block is better at controlling the main caps than a 2-bolt block. I feel that either block should be using main cap supports and/or aftermarket main caps. When you have thin cylinder walls, flexing of the block is going to translate to lost cylinder pressure and reduced power. It is also going to stress the mains more, which will put more stress on the caps.

For a street engine, running .030" or under, it is probably not going to matter whether it has a 4-bolt or 2-bolt or whether it is half-filled or not. I wouldn't have any problem running a 2-bolt street engine up to about 500 HP, but I'm not going to build a 2-bolt engine when I have 4-bolt blocks. The cost to build a 2-bolt is nearly identical to building a 4-bolt, with only the cost of the addition main studs being the difference.

For the street, I tend to agree with you Racer in all but one primary area. People often try to over build their street engines with "too hot" cams and higher compression (especially in areas where there is good petrol available), bigger carbs/intakes, exhaust and then they bolt on a nitrous kit and take it to the track. Will a 2-bolt ungrouted block fail any sooner or later than a 4-bolt block whether grouted or not? Who knows. I for one am not leaving anything to chance. When I build a hot street engine, I'm building it as tough as possible so I'm not back in it anytime soon.

For a sensible street application, a good 2-bolt block is all that is needed.


xr8_sprint said:
Hey davis... would you care to sell one at any stage? Got any unbored CJ blocks you could spare?

How much would it be to ship to California... or Australia... would it be realistic?

thanks!

shane
Shane, I'm more into keeping them than selling them. I don't sell standard bore blocks, I keep them and build them into engines. I usually sell the .030" and .040" blocks that I come across, which happens a lot. I see 10 that would need to be sleeved or overbored to .040" for every 1 I see that is standard. I couldn't tell you what the shipping cost to Australia is for a block, but it would be cheaper to buy a set of used caps and convert a 2-bolt block than to ship a 4-bolt block around. Buy the front and rear caps and then buy a set of aftermarket center caps if you're going to convert a 2-bolt block. It is better (IMO) than using all 5 factory caps if you're bothering with it at all. Of course, finding a set of good caps may be difficult.

Just a quick note, it is still cheaper and stronger to build up an SVO block and build a Clevor than it is to build a true Cleveland, I believe.

:davis:
 
#22 ·
I dont believe in girdles. They just seem to hold the broken bits together. I'm taking windsor here, because i havent seen the same block problems with clevos.

Also they are more harm that good if fitted incorrectly - which most are.

All the bathurst racing clevelands here are 2 bolt
 
#24 ·
CLEVLAND JUNKY said:
Damn, i have never seen a cleveland block with water jackets that clean, were the blocks brand new?
This particular block looked like this when I bought it:






...or not exactly new!

I've never seen a new 351C engine block that wasn't installed in a new car, back when they were putting Clevelands in new cars in the US!

:davis:
 
#26 ·
From my experience, the '76 -'78 cleveland blocks are mostly rubbish. I have two at home that came with factory sleeves. I have also heard that the XD/E blocks are better. Also, I have also been told that the XD/E 351 crank is similar to a 4MA (higher nodular iron).

I have an XE192540 block, and unfortunately, it suffers from core shift. All cylinders bar #6 are .280" thick whereas 6 is down to about .105", real bummer. In other words, if someone is going to sell you one, get it sonic checked!!!

Paul
 
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