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351 W into ef

18K views 25 replies 11 participants last post by  MADNC_8 
#1 ·
Hey Bit bored so thinking out loud here (again) how much difference is there between a standard 302 in an ef xr8 and a 351w in size difference. Would it be possible to drop a 351 into a ef without to much hassle. Caz i seen a stang in the states with a 351 stroked to a 427, this was using a a pro svo 351 block. Just a thought.
 
#2 ·
Overall Length both 302 & 351 windsor measure the same at around 27.5 inches using short serpentine water pump as fitted to our EB-AU V8 Falcons otherwise add another 1.5 inches. This is when measuring from bellhousing face to water pump nose.
Overall Width 302 is around 18.75 inches & 351 windsor is 21 inches wide and height wise mesuring from oil pan to manifold 302 is 20.75 inches and 351 is 23.75. So a 351 windosr is 3 inches taller & 2.15 inches wider then the 302 windsor.

I don't see why the 351 windsor wouldn't fit. The only problem you might have is with the bonnet clearance but this will depend on the intake manifold you will be using. You will also need either custom extractors due to the taller deck off the 351 windsor or you can modify the 302 extractors.

I've spoken with Darren from Di Fillipo exhaust not long ago and he told me that their extractors went on a 351 windsor which a customer fitted to an EL falcon ute so if i was you I would be talking to them guys first.
 
#3 ·
Sounds like im not the first person to think of this, i wont ever end up doing this unless i win lotto it was just a what if question more or less but thanks for the info,
 
#4 ·
man talk about a big job.. a complete f150 engine for eg: flywheels have different bolt holes inatakes hit on bonnet pad maf and intake tubes built for opposite side, wiring harness computer, acessories.. move battery bla bla bla.. $5000+ later and you have an engine in stock form that makes less power than a stock 4.0 EB.. go either a blower or turbo. or stroke the 302 to 347.. stroker kits can be bought at about $2000. then yove still got leftovers for the top end and accessories.. no engineers certificate rqd.. ect.. others may not agree with me but from experience stuff like this is definite not worth the hassle..at least if you crash the sucker you can take a supercharger off in a flash and keep it for your next car. thats just my 2 cents worth anyway
 
#5 ·
Yup i understang what your saying, big job. But who said id put a stcok 351 in if i was going to do this, i was thinking a dart or sportsman block srtoked to either a 408 (sportman) or 427 (dart) these blocks can be found cheaply in the states if used. I cant find the link i want now arrrgggggggg bloke was selling a dart 351/427 long block forged internals good to 1000hp car made high 500rwhp n/a and was in a dialy driver stang. Oh long block was only $2500 us so mid 3k au he was also selling a 1500hp capable fuel system for 600us twas twin walbro pumps and stainless braided lines and the rest.
 
#6 ·
I looked at this myself...
found this doc on the net... cant remember where tho

347 vs. 351
If you’re considering extra cubes, then chances are you’re wrestling with a fairly common dilemma: Do you build a 347 out of your 5.0 or step all the way up to a 351? Perhaps the following info will help you decide.
351W: Advantages
• Strength: The 351W block is stronger than the production 5.0 by a long shot. Thicker walls and 3-inch main, and 2.311-inch rod journals (versus 2.248/2.123 for the 5.0) are contributing factors.
• Taller Deck: The 351W features a deck height of 9.503 inches versus the 5.0’s 8.206 inches. This means a longer rod can be used for even more cubes—up to 435 with a production two-bolt block, and 454 cubes with a four-bolt FRPP block, according to George Klass at Coast High Performance.
• Rod-to-Stroke Ratio: In stock configuration, the 351 has a better rod-to-stroke ratio than a 347 (1.70:1 for the 351W versus 1.58:1 for the 347) by virtue of its longer rods (5.956 versus 5.400 for the typical 347 rod). The 347 also features ½-inch head bolts instead of the 302 block’s 7/16-inch bolts.
351W: Disadvantages
• Size: The 351W is 2.250 inches wider than a 302, necessitating a number of changes (at additional cost) to make the swap possible. Hood clearance can become an issue, and there will be less room to service the plugs.
• Heavy Weight: As discussed in the Keep the Muscle, Lose the Fat sidebar, the 351W is beefier and is typically more than 100 pounds heavier than a 302-based engine.
347: Advantages
• 302-based: The 347 is created when a 302 block is bored 0.030 and fitted with a 3.400 stroke crank and custom rods/pistons. This means a 347 has the extra cubes you desire, yet it can still use the same headers, manifolds, brackets, and so on as a stock 302.
• Light Weight: The 302-based engine is more than 100 pounds lighter than the 351 in stock form, and it can be made downright feathery with a few aluminum components.
347: Disadvantages (and perceived disadvantages)
• Limited Growth: While 347 ci is certainly a respectable number, it’s the practical displacement limit for a two-bolt-main production block.
• Limited Strength: A two-bolt-main production block is typically capable of withstanding up to 600 hp, and that’s with a girdle, studded mains, and so on. Even a mildly built 347 with a supercharger can bust that figure. An R302 block will solve the problem, but there goes your budget.
• Poor Rod-to-Stroke Ratio (perceived): There has been a lot of talk about the 347’s rod-to-stroke (R/S) ratio. Simply stated, the R/S ratio is the length of the connecting rod (center-to-center) versus stroke of the engine. A higher ratio means the piston stays at top dead center longer, promoting better combustion and, theoretically, more power. Compared to the 351W’s 1.70:1 R/S ratio, the typical 347’s R/S ratio of 1.58:1 doesn’t look good, but it’s actually better than a lot of other noted performance engines, including the 454 big-block Chevy (1.53:1) and 400 small-block Chevy (1.48:1). Even the legendary 428 CJ was only marginally better than a 347 at 1.63:1. Unless you’re building an engine to compete with Billy Glidden, R/S ratio really doesn’t add up to much in an otherwise well-built engine.
• Oil Burner (perceived): Piston design is critical to the success of any 347 kit, according to George Klass at CHP. Trying to improve upon the 347’s R/S ratio only moves the pin further up into the piston. If the pin is moved up into the oil ring land, the top of the pin will be located above the oil ring, allowing more oil to get past the oil rings and into the combus- tion chamber. This is how the 347 got a reputation as an oil burner. However, George says, many kits—including CHP’s—place the pin below the oil ring, so oil consumption is not a problem.
Cost Factor
The next thing you’d probably like to know is, which would be cheaper, a 347 or a 351W? As discussed, the 351W requires numerous extra parts to accomplish the swap, while the 347 doesn’t. However, depending on what 347 kit you purchase, the initial short-block may be more expensive than a 351W. Since we can’t know what combo you have planned, the best idea is to add up the cost of a 351W, factor in the extra parts, and then compare that to the cost of the 347, keeping in mind both engines can use the same heads. Our guess is that the 347 will probably be less, but depending on how serious you plan to get, a 351W swap could be equal to, or less than, the cost of a truly serious 347.
 
#7 ·
and this one

if your brain isnt already fried !

351 Engine Swap
A 351W Is One Of The Best Ways To Give Your ’86-’95 Mustang New LifeBy Chris HemerPhotography: 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Archives, Courtesy of the ManufacturersCubic inches are like money. Having enough to be comfortable is nice, but having a lot is better, and having more than you know what to do with is just right. The 5.0 is a potent engine (just ask any 5.7 Camaro owner), but when it’s time to rebuild or you just want that competitive edge, some extra cubes are in order. Yes, there are numerous stroker 302 kits on the market, and they have their advantages (which we’ll talk about later). But if you really want to go for the gusto, then you should consider moving to a 351W. It’s got more cubes in its stock form than you can comfortably (or affordably) extract from a 302-based engine, and you can stroke it well beyond 400 cubes should the need arise. If you’ve been thinking about a 351W swap but didn’t know where to start, you’re in luck. We talked to some of the leading swap experts in the industry. In the following pages, we’ll discusss 351W/Fox chassis swaps and their advantages/disadvantages versus a 302-based build. We’ll also clue you in to all the parts necessary to get the job done right--from the oil pan to the top of the intake manifold. Now let’s get rich! The SwapAs swaps go, the 351W/Fox chassis swap is relatively simple, with no fabrication or butchering required (the same is true with SN-95 cars). The stock motor mounts will work, as will the front cover, the radiator (if you plan to build a mild 351), the shroud, the water pump, the pulleys, and all of your accessories when the proper brackets are used (more on that later). Unfortunately, just about everything else needs to be replaced, which will add to the cost of your project.Beginning with the bottom of the engine, the first thing you’ll need is a different oil pan. The 302 uses a rear-sump pan, while the 351W uses a front-sump oil pan, which necessitates a new pickup. If you’re going to limit your driving to the street, FRPP offers a complete oil-pan kit (PN M-6675-A58) that includes a 5-quart (stock capacity) rear-sump pan, a dipstick, a tube, and a pickup. The oil pump and drive are not included, so you’ll have to purchase these items separately. For a street application, FRPP recommends a stock-replacement oil pump (available through Melling), while a street/strip engine with looser bearing clearances (0.0025-inch) can use an FRPP M-6600-B3 pump. An FRPP M-6605-A341 driveshaft will work in either instance.For street/strip applications, Canton offers a rear-sump 7-quart oil pan (PN 15-670; pickup sold separately under PN 15-671). Moroso also offers a 7-quart oil pan (PN 20520) with a built-in wind-age tray and scraper that fits ’81-’97 Mustangs, ’81-’88 T-birds, and ’81-’86 Capris (pickup sold separately under PN 24514). The 351W also has a different balance than the 5.0. The 351W requires a 28-inch/ounce unbalance, while the 5.0 uses 50-inch/ounce unbalance. This means you won’t be able to reuse your stock 5.0 flywheel or harmonic damper on your 351W. FRPP offers a billet steel, SFI-approved 157-tooth flywheel (M-6375-A302) that will work, and assuming you wish to use the factory serpentine belt system, you can use the FRPP steel damper (PN M-6316-C351), along with the M-8510-B351 or C351 spacer, which creates the proper alignment with the serpentine system. According to Rod Kack at FRPP, you can also use a damper from a ’75-’80 302 or 351W engine, but you have to make sure you get the right one. There are two different bolt patterns and three different lengths (measured from the mounting face to the end of the snout): a 3-inch with a three-bolt pattern, a 3.400-inch with a four-bolt pattern, and a 3.950-inch with a four-bolt pattern. This last one, according to Rod, is the only one that will suit your needs if you want to retain the serpentine system. As mentioned earlier, the stock motor mounts (if still in good condition) will work. But, because the 351W is 3 inches taller than the 302 (measured from the bottom of the stock pan to the top of the stock valve covers, the 302 measures 203/4 inches, the 351W 233/4 inches) you could encounter hood-clearance problems with fuel injection. HP Motorsport offers solid motor mounts, which lower the 351W by 3/4 inch in the engine cradle, improving both hood clearance and center of gravity. According to HP’s Paul Brown, you shouldn’t encounter any clearance problems down below as long as you’re using the FRPP 351 pan, stock crossmember, and rack. Paul also maintains the solid mounts aren’t too severe on the street as long as the factory rubber trans mount--or aftermarket poly- urethane mount--is used. In any case, you may still require a cowl hood, so keep this in mind when tallying your expenses. If you’re beginning with a car that was originally equipped with a four-cylinder or V-6 engine, or you just want to use stock-type motor mounts, George Klass at Coast High Performance recommends certain Ford motor mounts (PN E7ZZ-6038-E and E7ZZ-6038F). These are factory convertible 5.0 motor mounts that feature more reinforcement and therefore are stronger than standard 5.0 motor mounts. The front cover from your 5.0 will work, along with the water pump. But if your water pump is original, it’s probably not a bad idea to get a new unit from FRPP, or aftermarket manufacturers such as Edelbrock, Stewart, or Evans Cooling. Camshafts Since we’re assuming you’ve started out with a new or rebuilt 351 short-block, we’re not going to talk about camshaft or timing-chain choices, but there is one important detail that bares mentioning. Early 351W blocks are not designed for use with roller hydraulic cams. This leaves you with two choices: Run a flat-tappet cam, or make some changes so you can run a hydraulic roller. "We find that about 50 percent of our customers stick with the flat-tappet cam," George Klass says. "But that limits you to less-aggressive profiles because of the ramp rates [of a flat-tappet grind]." George says if you want to use a hydraulic-roller cam, you can use stock 5.0 roller lifters as long as you run a small-base-circle cam (also known as a retrofit cam), available through a variety of cam manufacturers. Cylinder Heads and IntakesThe next step up the ladder is the cylinder head choice. There’s no difference here--in aftermarket heads, that is. Any popular aftermarket head designed for the 302 will also fit the 351W, provided the bolt holes in the heads are stepped and can be drilled out for 1/2-inch fasteners. Using junkyard heads and then porting/rebuilding them is another option, but this won’t really save you much money over a set of assembled aftermarket heads unless you do most or all of the work yourself. Junkyard heads also won’t flow as well as a pair of aftermarket heads.Again, because the 351W has taller decks than the 302, this places the cylinder heads further apart, which precludes the usage of a fuel-injected 302 lower manifold or any 302 intake manifold for that matter. If you’re going with fuel injection, you only have a few manifold choices, according to Ed Marsh at Windsor-Fox Performance Engineering. You can use the FRPP GT-40 setup used on the Ford Lightning or the Lightning lower and a Cobra upper. Other options include Edelbrock’s 351W truck lower (PN 3884) with a 5.0 passenger car upper (Performer PN 3822 or Performer RPM PN 7125), and Trick Flow’s 351 EFI Manifold (PN 5150000-4), which includes the upper and lower (also available separately). Yes, the 351W truck upper will bolt up to the engine, but it’s not a performance piece and hood clearance problems would be extreme, Ed explains. For racing purposes, Coast High Performance offers its 351W EFI Spyder intake, which is a four-barrel Victor Jr. manifold with 1/2-inch fuel rails and a 90-degree Power Elbow that accepts up to a 90mm throttle body.Accessories and Exhaust SystemNow that we’ve talked about what’s necessary to bolt the 351W into the engine bay of your Mustang, we’ll discuss the stuff you’re gonna bolt to the engine--namely the accessories and the exhaust system. Your stock 302 power-steering and air-conditioning (if so equipped) brackets will not work on the 351W, but there’s good news. FRPP offers a 351W Engine Swap Accessory Drive Kit for the ’85-’93 Mustang that is available with the power-steering bracket only (M-8511-A351) or with both the power-steering and air-conditioning brackets (M-8511-B351). Whatever exhaust system you currently have will work, but the headers you have (factory or otherwise) will not, again because the 351W is so much taller. MAC offers short-tube 351W swap headers (PN E358692) that will bolt up to the stock or stock configuration aftermarket H-pipe, as does FRPP (PN M-9430-A58 for ’86-’93; PN M-9430 R58 for ’94-’95). MAC, Hooker, Hedman, Coast High Performance, and a host of other manufacturers offer long-tube headers. Fuel and IgnitionWhile the stock fuel system will sustain a stock 351W, odds are the 351W you have planned won’t be stock--so the fuel system will likely require some modification. Beginning at the fuel tank, replace the stock pump with a larger unit, such as FRPP 150- or 190-lph pumps. The 150 is good for about 400-plus horsepower; the 190 is good for about 500 using the stock lines and 351W rails. Higher horsepower levels will likely require a custom fuel system with a larger pump, lines, and aftermarket rails.Choosing the correct injector for the horsepower level you plan to attain is critical. A mildly built 351W can use 24-lb/hr injectors, although it’s more likely you’re going to have to use 30-36 lb/hr injectors (36 lb/hr units are no longer available via FRPP). Whether you’re building a more normally aspirated engine or a serious supercharged engine, you’ll need a mass air meter calibrated for your new injector size, such as those offered by Pro-M and FRPP. Finally, in order to run fuel injection on a 351W, Ed Marsh at Windsor-Fox says you’re going to have to get a distributor from an EFI 351 truck (5.8L), again because of the difference in deck height. Find one at the junkyard, or buy one new from Ford (PN E7TZ-12127-D). If you’re using a later, roller-cam- equipped engine (’93-up), you’ll also want to replace the cast-iron distributor gear with a steel gear.Horse Sense: As popular as the 351W-in-a-Mustang swap is, Ford waited until the last year of the Mustang’s pushrod engine to offer a production Mustang with a 351. Only 250 units of the ’95 Mustang Cobra R were produced with the 351. That R’s engine produced 300 hp at 4,800 rpm and 365 lb-ft of torque at 3,750 rpm.
If you plan to go racing with your 351 or just want the added beef for a stroker engine, FRPP’s M-6010-N351 block is the way to go. The cast-iron block has a 9.5-inch deck height and has four-bolt mains on journals two, three, and four. It’s substantial enough to produce up to 434 cubes if necessary.
If you don’t want to build the engine yourself, and you want a quick and easy solution to your cubic-inch deficit, then FRPP still has the answer for you. The M-6007-C351 is a complete engine assembly from the pan to the intake manifold, and it includes such niceties as aluminum GT-40 cylinder heads, a hydraulic-roller cam, roller rockers, and a distributor. It already fits Mustangs, and it produces 362 hp (with a 780-cfm intake). Get an EFI intake system and you’re good to go.
 
#8 ·
thanks for that info made a good read, on your link to the chp stroker that seems a little expensive compared to others ive seen heres one http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=423519
But hell for about the same money you could get that svo sportsman block with forged 4340 internals for that. Look for second hand gear and cut those figures in half
 
#10 ·
would you be really worried about being smog legal, also only being a 302 to start with you wouldnt need to tell the rta and the likes so they would never know would they. It's only the inside of the block that is changed so how would anyone tell, i guess you are going to buy one of these shortblocks, what power you looking to make.
 
#11 ·
after another read it said that only the short block is smog legal, so throw a nice set of heads and a good intake on and you probally be over te limitanyway. I cant see why their shortblock could be much different to any others it's the a/f that goes into it that makes the power thus making it legal or not.
 
#13 ·
EFGTHO that's some good info but you can't compare our Falcons to US Mustangs. For starters some of the conversion problems that you might encounter with US cars/models would be different to the problems/issues you might have with our cars when undertaking a conversion of this sort.

For an example I know that physically the 351 Windsor will fit into an EB-EL engine bay. I know this because I measured my engine bay in my EB and compared it to the measurements in my mates XB Coupe and we found that the EB engine bay is about 15mm to 20mm wider when measured from shocker tower to shocker tower. I know this isn't much of a difference but if you can physicaly fit 460 BB into XY-XC engine bays why can’t you fit a stock 351 Windsor or Clevo into EB-EL. I have seen a 351 Clevo (Gas Research setup) in a XG engine bay which is smaller then the EB-EL engine bay and that's why they only came out with the six cylinder motors.

The only problem that I see besides the ones that I already mentioned before is if you are planing on running a bigger sump and this might cause interference problems due to EB-EL narrower sub frame. So before undertaking this sort of conversion finds out if there is someone that can fabricate a custom sump for you or has one to suit.

As for the weight factor the difference is 70lbs and not 100lbs. You can fix this weight issue by replacing your cast iron heads with some nice alloys bringing the weight factor back or close to stock 302 Windsor and picking up a nice chunk of bhp in the process.

Before starting your project consult with your RTA first and talk to one of the RTA approved engineers if you want your project to be legal...If not and you are still planing to drive it on the street anyways just make sure you don't get pulled over by someone that will be able to identify what you got under your bonnet because you could end up with a big fine.
 
#14 ·
yea i know about the big fine part of an unenginered car. So were basically saying it will fit, so to get tricky how hard would it be to get an engine cover similar to the 302 cover and put it over the 351 to help confuse anyonw who looks or help hide the transplant a little.
 
#16 ·
redhotxr8 said:
The swap can be done quite easily, all the above is a great guide as to what to expect, their are also some things that you need to custom do along the way as well but the swap is all great, problem ih hood clearance in all falcs, not as bad on the EB-ED as the Au however.
I was wondering how long it would take you to reply to this thread.
 
#17 ·
redhotxr8 said:
The swap can be done quite easily, all the above is a great guide as to what to expect, their are also some things that you need to custom do along the way as well but the swap is all great, problem ih hood clearance in all falcs, not as bad on the EB-ED as the Au however.
So when are you gonna write up a nice big

" HOW TO FIT A 351 WINDSOR TO YOUR FALCON "
document for us mate :notwthy:
 
#20 ·
I8AHSV said:
I have seen a 351 Clevo (Gas Research setup) in a XG engine bay which is smaller then the EB-EL engine bay and that's why they only came out with the six cylinder motors.
I shouldn't nit pick here but XG is basically just a XF ute (with a few good mods i.e. better door latches, 4.0L, cosmetics etc), between the towers is exactly the same as XD-XE, but the firewall is different, Ford could have fitted a Windsor etc to it, but not in the same E series setup so it wouldn't have been worth doing it, Herrod fitted a Windsor to a XG years ago.
 
#23 ·
Yes you are right, except it was a Cleveland, which are much wider than a Windsor.
 
#25 ·
Yes it was a windsor actually, my mistake.

They had a lot of trouble getting the 351 in the EA, although I have heard of 351W's going into E-Series Falcons pretty easily.
 
#26 ·
Aaron_EF8 said:
Yes it was a windsor actually, my mistake.

They had a lot of trouble getting the 351 in the EA, although I have heard of 351W's going into E-Series Falcons pretty easily.
they didnt have trouble getting it in there just trouble keeping it cool.

it seems that the EA - ED front end isnt exactly the best for air flow going through..
 
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