I've been saying this for quite a while. People know how good the AFR alloy heads are for Windsors as they perform great in flow numbers - particularly peak figures. However, I chose Trickflow Twisted Wedge (in my case the TrackHeat heads) because the heads produce better torque (via improved flow) at lower valve lifts. This was why my engine felt so strong in the midrange (347ci).
Don't be fooled by peak flow numbers. What you are looking for is basically the area under the flow curve to tell you the amount of flow possible for evry intake cycle.
Whilst the article says the TFS haeds use the larger valve (which assumedly you can retrofit to the AFR heads), you can also modify the TFS heads by matching the porting of the AFRs (which we did to my heads) with the change available in purchase prices.
My vote is still for the TFS heads on a street engine.
I've looked at a set of AFR 185's and they are hogged out big time - would get MASSIVE flow. Ideal for a nutso cam and a stroker and maybe even a blower...
I have to agree with you Pete.
I have a friend in Perth with an EL Ghia that runs basically the same gear as me with the exception of Heads. He was recommended AFR's whilst I use TFS Twisted Wedges.
The difference in midrange is just totally rediculous
On the subject of induction / heads, I was wondering how you finially decided which inlet manifold to use on your old Windsor?
I have seen plenty of articles comparing lots of cylinder head designs, including the URL you posted. However, I have not had as much luck tracking down good comparisons of the available aftermarket inlet manifolds from Holley, Edelbrock, TFS et al.
On the subject of induction / heads, I was wondering how you finially decided which inlet manifold to use on your old Windsor?
I have seen plenty of articles comparing lots of cylinder head designs, including the URL you posted. However, I have not had as much luck tracking down good comparisons of the available aftermarket inlet manifolds from Holley, Edelbrock, TFS et al.
No. Rob had just bolted together the engine in his Black Fairmont. Whilst I later found he had fitted TFS stuff, I had made up my mind on what I wanted. I rang Rob to confirm he was okay with what I was buying.
I went the TFS heads because they had a good name for midrange torque (knowing AFR was the better power head up high) which was what I was after. Then I needed a suitable intake and the TFS seemed the go for the fact it can be reversed for Falcon right hand drive. I chose the TFS Track Heat manifold with the shorther runners because I wanted to fit a larger phenolic block anyhow and with the stroker the shorter runners would not hurt low end torque.
The results weren't good. I complained that it felt doughy and not responsive. It was only during my trip to the states (3 months) that I decided to send the car back to Rob. I asked for the compression to be upped to 10.5 and a few intake additions. We also fitted 1.7 rollers (since I had fitted the smallest TFS cam).
Finally, a fantastically flexible engine. Leave it in third gear and hit the Great Ocean road - smiles from ear to ear!
I'm keeping the compression on my 302 at 9:1 and i only have ported and polished heads, is it then a bad idea to go for a trickflow track heat manifold?..... is street talker (i think that's what it's called) the way to go?
I would go street,with track heat & std ish heads you may lose some bottom end, the manifold is vertually the same except the top runners are longer..Infact the lower is the same on both..
Depends on rest of package..maf etc...
yeah i just looked at the track heat, and street differences and it's just the runner length...
i've got a 70mm MAF and a 70mm throttle body is going on so it should flow okayish to the manifold, don't think 75mm throttle bodies are the way to go, maybe too big
yeah i just looked at the track heat, and street differences and it's just the runner length...
i've got a 70mm MAF and a 70mm throttle body is going on so it should flow okayish to the manifold, don't think 75mm throttle bodies are the way to go, maybe too big
70mm on both is good just make sure maf is calibrated to injectors etc..latter mafs where 24's from A.u 200kw on..
imo don't worry about cam, Fit 1:7 rockers as in std h.p 5 Ltrs..If you don't want to change cam..
You will also notice on the tfs site that it says not to fit gasget on block to inlet bottom[horizontal] part, just use silicone. Inlet gasgets must be used on inlet ports gasket though..It can hold manifold up and cause inlet leaks etc...
Agree they may be better, however they then pose the issue of engine ancillaries being different. Who is going to make the specific headers for the high port in a Falcon?
Agree they may be better, however they then pose the issue of engine ancillaries being different. Who is going to make the specific headers for the high port in a Falcon?
Not 100% sure Pete but I think they bolt right up.The ports are Approx 10mm higher, same as the old type made 10 years ago..They are not the R series...But dam near flow as well without loss of low end torque!!
The ports are raised 3/4 inch or 19mm. How that changes the placement of your headers around things like steering shafts is anyone's guess. Like I said, I see problems.
On a 302-347 I'd go the 185's over all of them. The reason they are so good is actually their mid lift flow numbers and the ability to still flow lots up top with no loss in port velocity down low.
By the time you've modfied the TW's to reach the 185's ability you've gone way past the cost of the AFR's plus the quality of the AFR's is already better.
Case in point; Just picked up a 5.0 R-series intake for a 400hp 302 build and the quality is less than good to say the least.
Personally I'm going for AFR205's but this is on a 391ci engine.
With deffence to tfs when imported here they usually import the "cheapest" they can tfs also have ported heads at around the same cost as afr which are cnc ported, the reason for there extra expence. Any 5 Ltr would go well with any of these heads but 185's would be fairly over the top with anything under a 347. Also 185's with the 2.02 valves won't have enough piston valve clearance without notching pistons...
Good place to purchase either head from U.S ported... www.TotalEngineAirflow.com
Or e- mail THE MAN.. EdCurtisFTI@aol.com
Actually 185's are not over the top on a 302. In fact the dyno tests Ive seen they even better the torque over the entire rev range when compared to 165's. When you're building a tough engine who cares if you have to notch the pistons?
Porting the TFS(or any other) to match what you get out of the box with the AFR's will and does cost more than the total cost of AFR's.
If it really is true that TFS send all the rubbish over here; EVEN MORE REASON NOT TO BUY THEM Don't you think?
Ive never seen such rubbish from Edelbrock; always top notch.
And AFR stuff is simply superb quality.
What do you guys think of the world products 'roush 200'
heads? You can get em here for under 2k,they are cast, but
they flow over 200 cfm at the intakes,tho the need a tiny bit of cleaning in the exhaust ports,and they flow enough for 500hp...
They have also been around for a while,you can also get alloy
versions too.....
Actually 185's are not over the top on a 302. In fact the dyno tests Ive seen they even better the torque over the entire rev range when compared to 165's. When you're building a tough engine who cares if you have to notch the pistons?
I was bringing that up as most people just want to bolt them on not rebuild compete mill not realy baging either head , product..The TFS high port has come back, good to have some compitition..
Porting the TFS(or any other) to match what you get out of the box with the AFR's will and does cost more than the total cost of AFR's.
Some will argue that point. TfS has a cheaper head but they have better at more $$$. Not saying AFR are crap either, you get what ya pay for..
If it really is true that TFS send all the rubbish over here; EVEN MORE REASON NOT TO BUY THEM Don't you think?
More the point the dealers bring in the poverty packs!! Get Track heat ll with better spings,porting etc. It seems that the reason tfs sell the bass t.w head is that MOST engine builders like to do there own porting etc..
Ive never seen such rubbish from Edelbrock; always top notch.
Oh yea they don't flow as well and have had trouble with valve shims being too soft, loosing spring tension etc...In one batch but all manu can have those probs..
And AFR stuff is simply superb quality.
Yes they are at more cost initially..
Most the fastest W Fords in U.S are either AFR or TFS headed
Yep ebxr, the TFS hi ports are a great piece no doubt and I must admit I am tempted to use them on my 391.
I realise you weren't saying the AFR's were no good but the fact remains that you can't get anyone to port a TW to flow like the AFR 185 does out of the box for less than the total cost of the AFR's. To be really fair the TW should be NC ported like the AFR and of course this is more expensive again.
Edelbrock may not flow as well(although the new revised ones flow a lot better) but on the quality front they certainly are better than the TFS stuff.
Hopefully TFS will stop sending seconds our way.
Philstoj,
The Roush heads are of course a rehashed World products head. The iron ones are pretty good for a low cost option but as you say they need to be ported to get them close to what the AFR is out of the box. The examples Ive seen seem to lose out on low to mid lift flow when ported too.
As in other thread but notice at 300 lift The Twisted Wedge is right up there above AFR's 185's...At 500 the 185's are better. But I'd say the valve is around 300 lift alot more[passes 300 twice] than 500. Alot of cams don't even have that much lift. Std 5 Ltrs are 444 lift..
Remember there are various t.f.s heads the "Twisted Wedge" is there better flowing heads [Other than maybe highport?] For street!!.The TFS street heat is an inline valve head and has to be used as some rules don't allow the better T.W heads in various racing..
Either way they're better than e7's or GT40 p's...esp valve gear.. imo...
Flow doesn't nessessary mean power or atleast a quick car, velocity, combustion, etc comes into play also...
Yes!!!!
Strange see the 2v clevo was better than 4v by a quite big amount..At lower lift levels..
Yes I guess thats often been debated on U.S forums alot of it come down to "THE PACKAGE" the question is often asked how the 5Ltr is not as easy to get power compared to Chevy.. The general consensus was the Ford product had SOO many different packages or combinations that some mixed DON"T work that well.Imo the genuine Ford H.P parts are more low end power torque & streetable.As they say the G.M product has a few and similar based combinations..As said by guys like Ed Cutis etc..G.M is bassed around the 350 where Ford is either 302 or 351+ and what good for one engine maybe not suitable for the other...
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