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Old 01-07-2007, 00:01   #1 (permalink)
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Blower combo for 302 windsor

Hi all,

have a bit of a problem on my hands, i currently own in my old celica supra a 450ish bhp 302 windsor. ITs got a 597" lift flat tappet cam, AFR alloy heads, Venolia 10.66 pistons, carillo rods and a boss 302 crank. running a carby setup currently. it is currently naturally aspirated.

Now, i want to try and get the car down into the low 10/ high 9 second 1/4 zone. its a pretty open cheque book motor.

I realise i need to change pistons to lower comp items, a less lumpy cam, and i want to put EFI on it also. Im also going to get a 4 bolt block.

Can anyone help me with:

what sort of compression ratio pistons i should use? I was going to use JE units.
what sort of lift cam will i need?
what sort of blower would i need - i guess itd have to make around 500kw or a bit more?
what sort of EFI gear should i need? I have a dual throttle body top hat which supposedly flows 1000cfm.

thanks guys, really appreciate your help
Blake
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Old 01-07-2007, 15:43   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

Hi Blake,
Lot's of variables here. Maybe you can clarify a few things for us. in order to help you better.
What gearbox and diff combo are you using?
What type of fuel do you intend to run on?
Will the car remain as a daily driver or just a weekend racer?

Pros and cons for different blowers as well are as follows:-
6/71- style look awesome, but less efficient and make heat, so boost is limited to around 8-10lbs, they make very good low down power and torque
Centrifugal- can make the most power, but are essentially belt drven turbos, and make only modest power/torque increases down low, great for dyno horsepower competitions
Twin screw- make as good/ better low down power than a 6/71 style, are as mechanically efficient as a centrifugal, style of blower used by top fuel teams

Cam specs are detemined by your head flow.Remember, a blower will smooth out a big cam, so you may not need to go 'smaller'. You may need to change the profile however, to allow the extra fuel burnt to escape through the exhaust

Lower compression theoretically allows you to run more boost and more ignition timing, but again, it relates to the fuel you are using. Guys running 6/71 style blowers generally run lower comp (around 8.5-9.0:1 max), because of the heat they produce and the tendancy of these motors to ping.

In terms of flow, the other guys could tell me what the AFR's flow, but let's say the flow 270cfm on the inlet, then you'll need roughly 8x 270cfm through your throttle bodies. So, as a rough estimate, i'd say your top hat is a bit small.

Get back to us with those questions at the top and we'll be able to give you more accurate advice.
Regards,
gus351
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Old 01-07-2007, 23:25   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

Thanks for your help gus!

The car is a street racer, just comes out to play, not drive everyday.
will run it on 98 octane around town, which is what it currently runs, but come to the track, im open to advice.

gearbox is going to be a worked turbo400, as i dont think the 5speed will last and wont get me good times, and diff i think is going to be a 9" 4link with an unknown gearset ratio.

i think the AFR heads are meant to be the beez neez, and the fellow at the local race shop insists they are big enough, even if we have to play with them a little bit.

Maybe i am better off keeping with the carby setup and running a vein supercharger? is this the ultimate in power- hunting?

is an 8/71 an option?
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Old 01-13-2007, 14:16   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

HI 302Supra,
I think an 8/71 would be more than adeqaute on a 302.
You'll probably find it pretty hard to get it all under the bonnet, once you have put carbs on it.

A vortech V7Ysi would give well over 500 at the tyres, but not nearly as tough down low and through the mid range.

Check out www.whipplesuperchares.com for what i think is the best of both worlds.

To add a fourth, but more complex and more expensive option, there is the choice of twin turbos! A couple of Garrett GT35 ball bearing turbos,would have you making 800hp plus, but there's a lot of work and expense there.


Cheers
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Old 01-15-2007, 23:45   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

Quote:
Originally Posted by gus351
HI 302Supra,
I think an 8/71 would be more than adeqaute on a 302.
You'll probably find it pretty hard to get it all under the bonnet, once you have put carbs on it.

A vortech V7Ysi would give well over 500 at the tyres, but not nearly as tough down low and through the mid range.

Check out www.whipplesuperchares.com for what i think is the best of both worlds.

To add a fourth, but more complex and more expensive option, there is the choice of twin turbos! A couple of Garrett GT35 ball bearing turbos,would have you making 800hp plus, but there's a lot of work and expense there.


Cheers
gus351
my exhaust owes me almost 2 grand so cant do the turbo route sorry haha. the vein blower with carbs might be the go...i have a holley blue pump at the moment, any idea if that will support the power? I am probly going to buy another demon 650dp so i have a pair...should be enough fuel?
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Old 01-16-2007, 13:05   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

Hi Again,
The Vortech would be one of the easier installs to complete. You could stick with your current inlet manifold, whatever that is. Preferable would be a funnel web, TFC or similar. A torquer would be okay at a pinch though. A Vortech blower would also require you to run an intercooler, so think about where you can fit that too.

Forget the second carb for this style of setup. You will be running a blow through setup, not a draw through. You will need to get a boost referenced carburetor, built specifically for a blow style of install. It will probably be around 800-850cfm.

Blow through carb setups work quite differently in that you do not need to be precise with your carb size. It is still a good idea to get it right if you can, but any inaccuracy is compensated for by the fact the carb is under pressure and will flow the air required, regardless of the venturi size, up to a point, that is! So, a 450 holley wouldn't cut it, but anything from a 750 to a 950 might.

As for fuel supply, one Holley blue is not going to be sufficient. Two might be, but if you could sell the Blue to a friend to subsidise a big Barry Grant, that would be the way to go. I'd run 2 x half inch lines from the tank to the carb, with 5/8 or bigger fittings on the carb.

Hope that helps,

gus351
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Old 02-18-2007, 20:13   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

If you're shooting for over 500rwhp, you will need to add a new (aftermarket) block to your list of things to buy unless you don't mind splitting it pretty soon after it hits the track/dyno.

Ford racing are offering a new boss block, either that or go for a dart etc.
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Old 02-19-2007, 00:53   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

yeah it probly will be over 500rwhp. i spose whatever i need to run low 10s.

Heres the plan for the motor bar the bolt on power adder

- Dart 4bolt block
- Genuine Boss 302 crank
- carillo rods
- edelbrock performer rpm manifold drilled and tapped for efi
- top hat plenum with two 75mm throttle bodies
- Je or similar forged low comp pistons
- Cam of some sort
- AFR 185cc alloy non legal heads
- Crane roller rockers


Does this sound up to the task bar the bits im missing?

Gearbox to start with will be the supra 5spd, so we will see how long that lasts. Diff will be a Jaguar 420g 3.54:1 LSD.
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Old 02-19-2007, 00:57   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

That intake is probably too restrictive to make good hp. I would go for a single plane for better balanced intake charge. Alot of the guys on turbomustangs run single planes (especially weiand 7515 xcellerators).

Apart from that, sounds good.

Have a look at this for some extra input:

302w.com - Ford Windsor Engine Horsepower Database
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Old 02-19-2007, 22:19   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Blower combo for 302 windsor

Quote:
Originally Posted by C0V3R
That intake is probably too restrictive to make good hp. I would go for a single plane for better balanced intake charge. Alot of the guys on turbomustangs run single planes (especially weiand 7515 xcellerators).

Apart from that, sounds good.

Have a look at this for some extra input:

302w.com - Ford Windsor Engine Horsepower Database
thanks for your help mate, yeah i was umming and arring about the manifold, seems popular opinion ill sell it for a s.p efi one.
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