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Old 03-16-2004, 19:07   #1 (permalink)
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Question Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

Ok Ive been reading and reading and Im starting to get concerned about whether or not my soon to be implemented upgrade plans will give me the results that I am after.

Firstly Ill explain my current system.

Ive got the 165kw EFI 302 V8 with the following mods / specs

intake
GT snorkel
K&N filter
Ram-air tube from lower bumper
Standard MAF and TB

exhaust
Pacemaker extractors
2 mandrel bent single cat back with a single Lukey straight through muffler
Standard Y piece and cats.

internal
1.7:1 ratio roller rockers

My planned upgrades from this point were to be

intake
home porting of the standard E7 intake ports and standard lower HO manifold (esp 1 & 5 runners)

exhaust
home made press-bent twin exhaust with x-pipe and 2 Lukey straight through mufflers.
Home porting of the standard E7 exhaust ports.

The Problem

When I had the pacemakers put on, I noticed a significant drop in bottom end torque. My peak power increased and my mile ET and trap speed decreased and increased respectively but I could no longer spin the wheels from idle.

Some of the material Ive read from the states and some of the posts here on fordforums suggest that Im already suffering from exhaust flowing more than cam syndrome. My questions are as follows.

Is there such a thing and if there is, will the reduction of backpressure that a 7.95sq.in. twin 2 system will provide over my current 4.91sq.in single 2 result in shifting the power band too high for my stock engine? Ive read in numerous places that the Xpipe will increase torque, but increase it with respect to what? A single system? A similarly sized H pipe twin system? What part of the rev range experiences this increase?

I was hoping that the head porting would increase my high end pulling power with little or no bottom end effects, am I to believe that my bottom end will drop off if I port the exhaust ports?

With my engine breathing so well, will my current cam with the 1.7:1 roller rockers be insufficient?

Essentially, I was chasing mid to top end improvements which Im sure Ill get but I dont want to compromise bottom end performance much more! What should I expect from these mods? Are they appropriate for an engine running stock internals?

Additionally, whilst Im at it, what would you recommend regarding compression ratio? Im happy to always run 98 octane fuel. Should I bother shaving the heads a little? What would I be happy upping the compression ratio to? Can you do this by yourself or is it best to get a work shop to do it? Approximate cost?

If I have to go with a cam to match the newly ported heads? What profile should I look at? Ive researched regrinds recently as some of you may remember and found that it would be costly; requiring new springs and longer pushrods. Presumably I would want a longer duration cam with similar lift to my stock one ( the 1.7:1 rockers increase the std cam lift anyway ). Any thoughts on whether a cam is necessary to avoid murdering my bottom end and if so which cams to look at and the implications of sticking with my standard cam? I do not want to change my ECU.

If anyone can help with some of these issues Id be most grateful!

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Old 03-16-2004, 19:36   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by !Gn|T|0n
Ok I was hoping that the head porting would increase my high end pulling power with little or no bottom end effects, am I to believe that my bottom end will drop off if I port the exhaust ports?
!Gn|T|0n
High end HP and a good bottom end are mutually exclusive. They don't co-exist.

Then again, it depends on what you consider "good bottom end" and "good top end". Your definition is probably different to mine. How much you are willing to compromise? It's all about compromise - a balancing act.

The more top end power, the less bottom end. Assuming you are only trying to boost your bottom end, make everything as small and efficient as possible. Raising the comp as you mentioned will a big help.

Also incorrectly porting your manifold and heads can make the situation worse. You must be careful. Best gains for your application are found in the bowl, not the ports, so start there.

Maybe you can clarify exactly what you are trying to acheive in terms of power delivery?
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Old 03-16-2004, 19:49   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer
High end HP and a good bottom end are mutually exclusive. They don't co-exist.

Then again, it depends on what you consider "good bottom end" and "good top end". Your definition is probably different to mine. How much you are willing to compromise? It's all about compromise - a balancing act.

The more top end power, the less bottom end. Assuming you are only trying to boost your bottom end, make everything as small and efficient as possible. Raising the comp as you mentioned will a big help.

Also incorrectly porting your manifold and heads can make the situation worse. You must be careful. Best gains for your application are found in the bowl, not the ports, so start there.

Maybe you can clarify exactly what you are trying to acheive in terms of power delivery?
Thanks Racer, I will try to clarify what I want / expect from the porting and exhaust. I have read that my heads and manifold "run out of air" at about 5000 RMP. My engine is an infrequent visitor to that speed but now and then I like to rev her out an most of the time that is done in 1st / 2nd gear for overtaking or on the strip. Certainly the car feels very "sluggish" as it passes 4,000 / 4,500 RPM. My 1/4 times are really good for 60' etc but everything catches me up high and I feel as I just coast over the line maintaining my speed towards the end. This is the symptom Id like to remove or make better. As far as compromise is concerned, I dont want to have to take my engine past 2,500 every time I want to make any power or in other words I dont want to start to feel sluggish when off the line thats not what a V8 is about in my mind.

With respect to the porting, I was going to mildly port the whole thing. Short side radius, the throat, pushrod bulge, valve boss etc.

Raising the compression ratio will provide gains over which portion of the rev range?

Have I cleared some of my ramblings up a bit? I guess for daily driving the engine operates primarily between idle and 4,000 occasionally 4,500 and 5,000 even less frequently. This is my definition of top end and Im looking for better breathing and pull from maybe 2,000 to these top end engine speeds. Are my plans in line with this objective?
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Old 03-16-2004, 20:19   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

You arent the only one having problems down low Ignition. I have practically the same engine specs as you bar the rr's and I have the 65mm tb. Nevertheless, I too feel the bottom end torque is very ordinary for a v8. At best I can get a chirp of the lights at idle, but when my mid range kicks in it feels a whole lot better.

I was led to believe that torque was improved by greater airflow speed as well as quality of air and quantity. Meaning a change of intake manifold, and heads would be best seen as optimum horsepower improvements on a otherwise stock motor. You already know this.

I beleive porting your stock intake and heads will see a good noticable and drivable improvement, but having aftermarket heads & intake will be better. The stock cam from what I hear is excellent in standard form. I know of many mustangs with our engines in them that run stock cams but change everyhting else i.e. heads, intake, injectors, maf, tb, reprogrammed ecu and still run 11-12 sec quarters and also be a daily driver.

Stick with what the yanks are doing and I reckon you'll be very happy.
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Old 03-16-2004, 20:43   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

I too have heard good things about the standard cam. I can't help but be confused about the "flowing too much for the cam" thing. Isn't a bigger duration cam just removing more exhaust restriction - or equivalent? I guess ultimately you can always stall up the torque converter from the line a little to compensate. The other thing is the extractors / exhaust combo was a BIG change from the standard system. I'm guestimating that the plans I have now will not represent such a radical change and hence any decrease in bottom end wont be as sever. I'm just spit balling here.
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Old 03-16-2004, 20:44   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer
High end HP and a good bottom end are mutually exclusive. They don't co-exist.

Then again, it depends on what you consider "good bottom end" and "good top end". Your definition is probably different to mine. How much you are willing to compromise? It's all about compromise - a balancing act.

The more top end power, the less bottom end. Assuming you are only trying to boost your bottom end, make everything as small and efficient as possible. Raising the comp as you mentioned will a big help.

Also incorrectly porting your manifold and heads can make the situation worse. You must be careful. Best gains for your application are found in the bowl, not the ports, so start there.

Racer, I think if it was an engine that was already making some decent torque to begin with your points would be more valid, but in Ignitions case he has an intake manifold that only flows around 130cfm per runner, intake ports that only flow about 150cfm and also very restrictive exhaust ports, these are the big bottlenecks in a stock HO 5litre. In comparison the AU intake flows roughly 178cfm with heads that flow something like 195cfm on the intake side. He's definently going to find nice gains by making it breathe. There's absolutely no point doing anything while that intake is stock.
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Old 03-16-2004, 20:46   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by !Gn|T|0n
I too have heard good things about the standard cam. I can't help but be confused about the "flowing too much for the cam" thing. Isn't a bigger duration cam just removing more exhaust restriction - or equivalent? I guess ultimately you can always stall up the torque converter from the line a little to compensate. The other thing is the extractors / exhaust combo was a BIG change from the standard system. I'm guestimating that the plans I have now will not represent such a radical change and hence any decrease in bottom end wont be as sever. I'm just spit balling here.
You're not flowing too much exhaust for the cam, tho you're probably flowing too much exhast for the shitty E7 exhaust ports. Having said that I didn't notice any loss of low down response from pacemakers + 3" mandrel bent system.
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Last edited by PigDog; 03-16-2004 at 20:49.
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Old 03-17-2004, 01:18   #8 (permalink)
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Too much exhaust kills low end torque almost always, small shitty mangled (not mandrel) bent standard type header pipes actually work great for 0 to 2000 rpm torque.
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Old 03-17-2004, 01:32   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

torque has alot to do with air speed.. hence long intake runners making better torque. but they restrict top end.

also exhaust.. the ballooning from the heads into the exhaust will slow down the speed of the gases enourmously.. thus taking away torque. (my HM headers have large primarys, so i found the same thing with my car as you did)

get new (alloy, save a few kilos) heads and manifold. it'll cost alot but you wont have to worry about that bottle neck ever again.. thats my plan anyway. (with intake coming first)
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Old 03-17-2004, 02:01   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Next step for my Windsor is it the right move?

IMO I wouldn't really worry about changing the exhaust setup, the pacemaker and 2 1/2" exhaust has proven to be about the best setup for mild engines. The rest of your plan is good, port the heads as much as you are comfortable doing, basically match the intake ports to a felpro 1250 gasket and slowly narrow it down towards the bowls. With the exhaust, match to a 1215 (I think thats it) felpro gasket and take out the exhaust bump and they will be fine. Upping the compression should help a bit too, I am running 10:1 without problems but anywhere from 9.5-9.8ish should be good, you will have to get a machine shop to do it and it should cost $1-200
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