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Marketing and $$$ decisions on XR6T and XR8

4K views 39 replies 20 participants last post by  max_torque 
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#1 ·
There was some good debate in another thread, although unrelated to the thread being closed, about the marketing and cost of the XR6T and XR8.

People (XR8 owners only I might add) say jack up the price of the XR6T. Obviously working on the theory that performance is the guide for price.

If the XR6T was ½ a second slower over the quarter, but still had the same goodies, would those same people be complaining about the cost and looming depreciation? I suggest not.

My point is;
1)I’d suggest that the XR6T was marketed to the people who are considered the turbo/WRX generation

2)If that being the case, the price of the car should meet the marketing price expectations. Ie below $50K, otherwise I’d buy a WRX. (And I would of.)

3)XR8 owners are not drawn from that demographic

4)I’d suggest that XR8 owners have grown up with the V8 marketing that says ‘performance only comes in an 8’ and would never look at buying the 6T anyway.

5)Therefore the BA XR8 was always going to be inline with price growth over the AUIII XR8.

6)No one made anyone buy an XR8. You knew what you were buying, so stop your whining.

zoomer
 
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#2 ·
Back on it again

and frankly Im sick of it, so I will say it again.

WE ARE TALKINING ABOUT THE FPV XR6T THAT MAY BE RELEASED in regards to prices, not the current xr6t range!

Zoomer, you are no position to tell me, or any other driver on these forums to grow up!, maybe constructive advice, yes

The issues as I stated when I closed the other thread stands, and if you fail to see that stop posting

Falchoon i deleted your post, take it up with a PM to the person you adressed your comment, it wasnt funny
 
#3 ·
I beleive the xr6t should the price structure should be reflected as such

xr6
xr6t
xr8
gt
FPV XR6 T
gtp

Not

xr6
xr6t
FPV XR6 T
GT
GTP

However, without the official release of the car, and final figures this is nothing but hype!

It just goes to show the reply of the Mustangs and T series range in the last 12 months
 
#4 ·
laminge said:


Falchoon i deleted your post, take it up with a PM to the person you adressed your comment, it wasnt funny
Someone got out of the wrong side of bed this morning...

Anyway, on to the subject at hand. I'm not sure I agree with your pricing of the FPV XR6T (If it ever happens). I think it should go between XR8 and GT. I can't see anyone forking out more than GT price for a six cylinder. Perhaps if it had GT type options such as Brembos and then it would depend also on how quick/powerful it is. If it was quicker than a GT then perhaps the extra cost is justified (not trying to inflame the 6 vs V8 debate, just have a rational conversation about it). Maybe the standard XR6T needs to be the same price as XR8? If they were the same price I probably would of bought the XR8. But on the other hand the XR6T is probably trying to attract potential WRX buyers so if it was too much more people mightn't be as inclined to buy it.
 
#5 ·
laminge ... did you leave out the XR8 in the non preferred range

freudian slip maybe :whoaa:

it is really difficult to guess the range if you start to include a possible/probable a FPV-XRT ....

where blowing a n/a V8 is reasonably difficult in comparison to tweaking the current XRT ... IMO think that the GT and its variants must stay above the possible/probable FPV-XRT

I can't follow Ford's thinking at all in this current range and it is damned thrustrating (even divisive)

the GT must remain at the head .. if not for any other reason than its place in history ...

as a XRT driver and Ford supporter I would hate to see any other Ford/FPV model above "any" GT based model

as for the XR8s ... or the XRTs ... the utes are priced nearly the same.. I have no idea why there is the difference in the sedans??
I bought the ute and it was an interesting decision to say the least ... choose the newbie path ... mostly for the "new" fun and experience ... and I had already the stang with a V8 from heaven

tough call ... tough call ...

this might sound like heresy ... but maybe there isn't room for all the models in the upcoming range .. (this is a very serious statement and not a flame)
 
#6 ·
If the FPV 6T is placed below GT, that would mean it would be a few thousand above the XR8. I know which one i'd be putting my money on. The 6T! I looove the sound of V8's but the 6T has alot of potential (as does the 5.4 i know) but it should show the GT the door in performance comparison which will be very unfortunate and stupid from Ford.
 
#7 ·
People are also forgeting about the GT HO and its place in the line up.
With the Turbo variations the problem will be price and power as already stated here. The problem Ford has is that the current XR6T can have $2k-$5k spent on them and have well over 300kw, this being the case why would someone buy a FPV Turbo with probably less power and probably with a $55k price ($65k drive away). The turbo is a great car and it could develop a heritage over time, but at the moment it has none. The GT has a heritage and people will pay a bit extra because of this.
FPV couldn't (read shouldn't) give a FPV turbo more kw than the GT (290kw), so there really isnt alot of room for Ford to move.
 
#8 ·
geea said:
The GT has a heritage and people will pay a bit extra because of this.
FPV couldn't (read shouldn't) give a FPV turbo more kw than the GT (290kw), so there really isnt alot of room for Ford to move.
I couldn't agree more
 
#9 ·
Further to the quoted comments above:

The point made about the price differential between XR6T / XR8 in the utes is a well made one. The disparity there is a mere $1250 ($40,925 XR8 Ute and $39,675 XT6T Ute) whereas the difference in the sedans is $5,490 ($50,130 and $44,640). That's probably a reasonable price differential in the Utes and one which wouldn't raise too much aggro from the enthusiasts.
The difference in the sedans points to one of three possibilities as I've said before.

1. The sedan buyer is being ripped of with the XR8.
2. The Ute buyer is getting ripped off with the XR6T.
3. The XR8 Ute is being subsidised.

A little closer look at ute pricing might help to clarify (all prices are based on autos with air for direct comparison):

The base Ute is $ 29,620
The XLS Ute is $ 32,550
The XR6 Ute is $35,125
The XR6T Ute is $40,595
The XR8 Ute is $41,845

Thus the premium between steps is:
$2,930; $2,575; $5,470 and $ 1,250.

The base XT is $ 34,660 or $ 5,040 above the Ute
The Futura is $ 37,865 or $ 5,315 above the Ute
The XR6 is $ 39,075 or $ 3,950 above the Ute
The XR6T is $ 45,560 or $ 4,965 above the Ute
The XR8 is $ 51,050 or $ 9,205 above the ute.

Thus the steps are: $3,205; $1,210; $6,485 and $5,490.

This would tend to support the view that the XR8 sedan is being loaded (by about $4k) whilst the XR8 Ute is receiving some subisdy (by a similar amount) and the XR6T sedan is attracting a small premium as well.

Now that the facts are out of the way let's speculate for a moment.

Were there to be an FPV version of the XR6T (let's call it the FPV6-T for want of a more imaginitive name) it would undoubtedly offer a tad more power than the cooking version but presumably less than big brother GT - say 270 kw. This would obviously take the role of an entry level vehicle to the FPV range and thus be priced below the base GT. Let's assume it would inherit the Tremec gearbox and the GT body kit (or part therof) and reached the market at say $55k in round numbers - which represents a similar uplift over the base XR6T as the GT is over an XR8.
It would weigh some 170-180 Kg less than the XR8 and even more of the GT duo and thus it is reasonable to guess at performance in the mid 5's and just above mid 13's.

Would that meet my stated criteria for vehicle parity pricing??

(It's a rhetorical question - no need to answer).

Cheers
Russ
 
#10 ·
Russ,

those numbers ran through my head when I was buying the XRT ute ... it really made no sense ... actually made me feel uncomfortable that the numbers didn't follow expected increments

one twist I noticed was that XRTs were available in auto form long before XR8s ... at the time of purchase I "needed" an auto (as I smashed my left arm resulting in making gear changes a grimacing experience) .
I would suggest that many new ute/sedan buyers also wanted/needed autos... that lack of supply in the XR8 IMO encouraged the sales of the XRTs considerably in the early months ...

it was/is/will-be a bit a shambles ...
 
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#12 ·
russellw said:
Further to the quoted comments above:
Sorry mate, your post that i quoted has been deleted for some reason??


Anyway, in that deleted post you mentioned that more performance/power or more goddies should = more $$$

Isn't 20kw extra worth the extra $$$?

I see what you're saying with the ute Vs Sedan prices. I'm lost on that one too.

As far as FPV 6T, im in two minds. Considering 2k on a chip and exhaust will match the power of a sub GT level FPV 6T, why would i send an extra 10k?

Then again, i might move onto a lease, and may update to a FPV 6T.

zoomer
 
#13 ·
XR6T: Sedan, ute and FPV

The way I see it is Ford is responding to market pressures at every level.

The SS ute is $39740 in both forms and is well appointed. I suggest that the XR6T is pitched at just above that price level on a perceived bang for the buck basis. Meanwhile considering the ute market many may not consider the XR6T a valid alternative. Therfore the XR8 cannot be priced much higher. I believe that the XR8 therfore is being a little underpriced and the XR6T overpriced thus the big price jump from N/A which in turn is priced above the 6Cyl Holden S but cannot get too close to the V8 Holden S.

In the sedan market we have the XR8 going head to head with the SS which is at $49490 in both forms which some decent standard options. The higher base price of the XR8 probably reflects the real expense of building the BOSS locally along with other bits and pieces. The XR6T is positioned to go against the WRX in the mid 40's and therefore is probably a bit underpriced.

I'm sure Ford's marketing people had lots of fun trying to sort this mess out and the XR6T is problematic because it's the new kid on the block and can't be paralleled with any existing competitor so the WRX seems the choice and the price gets cut accordingly and is probably subsidised by the ute's increased price.

Therefore we have to look at not just internal Ford lineup but what would a FPV XR6T be logically placed against in terms of competition.

Like svtang I have been tempted to just go the XR6T auto ute because I am not a patient person but just feel (not necessarily think) that the V8 is worth the minor price jump and the exruciating wait. I think a lot of the traditional ute buyers are going the same way as well. I'm seeing very few XR8 utes in the dealers but several XR6T's have been hanging round for ages. Likewise no XR6T sedans to be had (except early build demos) but heaps of XR8 sedans.

We can see that people are voting with their wallets. The GT's and GT-P's haven't been around long enough to see any trends yet although I know a few that have been sitting in dealers for weeks.

Ultimately Ford are trying to tackle a broad range of varying competitors with only one basic car with differences in body kit and engine choice. The XR6T opens them up to new markets and that is going to screw a bit with the old conventions.

I think that Ford/FPV might bite the bullet and produce an XR6T product that is quite different to the GT and GT-P to go up against a market that might otherwise ignore the GT type offering. The product is going to have to be pretty damn special and pretty damn different not to soil the GT's top of the pile image and yet at the same time there is an opportunity to build a new performance image rather than reminisce about a glorious past.

Ford must move forward.
 
#14 ·
For series two:

-FPV Turbo should be ruled out - unless above problems can be resolved (unlikely).

-Prices should remain simmilar.

-Weight should be decreased a bit accross the range.

-Power outputs should remain the same except in the XR8 and FPV models where they should be bumped up by 15kW. ie. 275kW & 305 kW respectively (Killing off HSV entirely).

- GT HO to be introduced with 380kW, with mat black bulge etc....

-The XR6T should get the better gearbox.

(ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED).

// Jake.
 
#16 ·
They do depending on price in Victoria same below $35000:

Passenger Vehicles (ie. sedans)
$0 - $35,000 2.5%
$35,001 - $45,000 4%
$45,001 - upwards 5%

Non Passenger (ie. commericals, utes)
2.5% for all

Unexpected bonus for me buying a ute. Duty is $1800 less than a similarly equipped XR8 sedan.
 
#17 ·
Yes the XR6t is a new fuzzy pair of dice to ford and there owners but reguardless of this the XR8 and GT have presence on the road, how many of us see an XR8 and point it out to ther friends, the V8 is an always will have a soft spot amoungst us ford owners because we've been raised around V8's being the king
(call it phase 3 ho giving ford its reputation for the last 30yrs).
My little brother is twice as big as me and runs faster than me, but i am still his big brother and he respects that. Just remember that XR6T owners as you have 12months history when the V8 owners have 40yrs
 
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#18 ·
EATURBO said:
Yes the XR6t is a new fuzzy pair of dice to ford and there owners but reguardless of this the XR8 and GT have presence on the road, how many of us see an XR8 and point it out to ther friends, the V8 is an always will have a soft spot amoungst us ford owners because we've been raised around V8's being the king
(call it phase 3 ho giving ford its reputation for the last 30yrs).
My little brother is twice as big as me and runs faster than me, but i am still his big brother and he respects that. Just remember that XR6T owners as you have 12months history when the V8 owners have 40yrs
Not all Ford Fans think the same way about V8s.
 
#21 ·
Zoomer said:
Sorry mate, your post that i quoted has been deleted for some reason??
Anyway, in that deleted post you mentioned that more performance/power or more goddies should = more $$$

Isn't 20kw extra worth the extra $$$?
Fair comment - but only if that extra 20 kw equates to extra performance which on any given day it probably doesn't. The real world difference between the two cars is counted in 100ths of a second and thus the pricing should be closer too.

Cheers
Russ
 
#22 ·
laminge said:
I beleive the xr6t should the price structure should be reflected as such

xr6
xr6t
xr8
gt
FPV XR6 T
gtp

Not

xr6
xr6t
FPV XR6 T
GT
GTP
Sorry mate I disagree, I think that an FPV XR6T should be placed between the XR8 and GT.

I stuggle to see the reasons why it should be priced above the GT even if it performs better.

For this I give a number reasons, firstly I think people expect to pay more for GT, with little regard to the performance respective to the rest of the model range, look at EB & EL, the EL actually was actually only 5kw over the stock series 1 XR8 and was actually 15kw less than the series 2 ELXR8.

I think alot of people like to buy the GT because of factors such as history, status, limited production, style and performance (performance having a less weight on the decision to buy).

End price has a reflection to do with cost and what people are willing to pay, on both of these factors I think the GT would be higher.

I think Ford marketing are also aware that if a FPV XR6T was priced above a GT, this would have place would give a negative impression on GT buyers who expect to pay more for a GT, which is something Ford probaby don't what to do with the GT.

The GT will always be top of the model range in my eyes regardless of performace figures, and as such should be priced as such.

Always Cheers.
 
#23 ·
seems that there is a general trend in opinion that

**** the XRT remains below or at XR8 and certainly below GTs

**** that "a" FPV-XRT could fit in between the XR8 and GT

**** the GT at the top of the pile ... regardless

**** the pricing "should" be like a step ladder accordingly


just checking in guys ... this is my reading of this thread so far
 
#24 ·
I wonder if a FPV 6T will sell enough to warrant development?
Leaving the macho bullshit aside. The GT-P is the largest selling of the 3 models. A GT-P is not just an XR8 with more power, it is a more "refined" sports saloon closer to a Sport Fairmont Ghia than a XR.
It is $20k+ dearer than a XR8 and $25k+ dearer than a XR6T.
Now are the GT buyers purchasing based on the power only or on an "image".
The balls out racers will always buy a basic 6T and do the go fast stuff. This is the most cost effective solution to make a VERY fast car.
I wonder how many current 6Ts are fitted with leather, premium brakes etc.
The proposed FPV will be heaps dearer (at least 10k) than the std XR6T and what will the advantage be?
More power? A $2k upgrade to a standard unit will do that and more.
Better handling/Brakes?
A trendy little FPV badge? (bloody expensive badge).
Remember the Skyline GTR? Turbo 6 AWD. NOTHING ever made by ford or holden has even come close to one of those in performance and they were an abismal failure in the sales arena. Most of the ones here now are greyed in.
The HSV XU6 was also a bit of a flop. They were quite fast for their time too.
I personally would not buy a FPV6T because it is not the sort of car I like. I did buy a GT-P after considering the new ghia V8, GT, XR8 and 6T and HSVs.
If FPV make a 6 then I hope it does sell well for FPVs sake because a flop would not be good for the bottom line and may prevent development of other projects (GTHO, Focus, whatever).

I think that owning a genuine GT V8 as opposed to a XR8 or XR6T (even one with more power) is a bit like owning a Harley. If have to ask why then you will not really understand the answer.
 
#25 ·
flappist said:
I think that owning a genuine GT V8 as opposed to a XR8 or XR6T (even one with more power) is a bit like owning a Harley. If have to ask why then you will not really understand the answer.

I hear you loud and clear ... interesting to see what unfolds in days to come ....
 
#26 ·
russellw said:
Fair comment - but only if that extra 20 kw equates to extra performance which on any given day it probably doesn't. The real world difference between the two cars is counted in 100ths of a second and thus the pricing should be closer too.

Cheers
Russ
Not to mention the probable upgrade in standard equipment, INCLUDING the T56 manual tranny from the FPV range.

An FPV Turbo 6 could take two paths. The first, one similar to that of a GTP and GT (because in my mind a GT is STILL A TOURER - a PERFORMACE SEDAN), or the second, the path of a sports car.

Marketing has a funny way of blurring the destinction between these definitions, and I think its important to define boundries before a car can be placed.

We can almost look at Ford AUS's delimer in a similar way to that of the current line up in the M series from BMW..
You have the M5, which for its time was a real Performance sedan, and in many ways still leads the "pack". It was compared to other SALOONS such as the Jaguar S/C V8, Merc S/C monsters etc... This is where the GT/GTP would sit

And then you have the M3, quite DISTINCTLY different. More of a SPORTS sedan, compared to the likes of porches, turbo japs etc etc. This is where a Turbo 6 would sit.

Ill bet these cars are pretty similar straight line cars, but still have a very different target market (and cost too). The M3 still delivers a better sports car (although a lot could be attributed to the relevant technology in the M3 over the M5), but theyre just two different cars....

I think we all want our GTP/GT to be the SPORTS car of the range, not the tourer of the range, and thats why were all having difficulty with the Turbo6.

Well i think i made a valid point somewhere there. time for a beer me thinks.:beer:
 
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