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drive review..vzss vs xr8 mk11

6K views 26 replies 22 participants last post by  xcgxl 
#1 ·
found this on another site



i was amazed to read the write up in todays Drive section of The Age where they comment that the Mkll XR8 they tested had noticeable driveline shunt. it was mentioned twice in the article, its good to see the media finally recognising the problem, they are the only ones with the clout to force action. They also said the shift on the new T56 was vague just like it is in the VZ. Makes you wonder why they bother, new gear box with a vague shift and the shunt uresolved Marketing over substance l guess, maybe they are trying to beat holden at their own game? Poor form Ford.

Both makers were also slammed for their brakes. They even commented that they had never driven a Ford that had not been fitted with the premium brake package. All in all, nothing glowing for Ford, they preffered the VZ overall.
 
#2 ·
Its about time Ford's lack of effort on resolving the driveline and gearbox issues has turned around and bitten them on the butt............The media would have a field day if they found out how they treated their customers when it came to fixing these driveline problems.....
 
#3 ·
There was a letter "Ford driveshafting the punters" in a recent Motor magazine from a BA owner complaing about driveline shunt, but the editor seemed surprised, saying they hadn't noticed it since their AU T3. Either Motor have been exceptionally lucky or Ford have been carefully choosing the cars they give them.

On release of the BA turbo, Wheels commented, "The preview Turbo's snatchiness in low-speed stop start driving is a reminder that big-engined, high powered manuals seemingly can't escape driveline shunt".

Similarly Autospeed commented, "The standard BTR T5 5-speed manual gearbox whines and growls while, out back, the diff clunks and snatches as you get on and off the power."

Yet, despite these comments, sales didn't seem to hurt, so I guess it's not a big priority, however I am amazed that while upgrading to a six speed, they didn't try to smooth out the driveline. Very dissappointing.
 
#5 ·
RST2000 said:
found this on another site



i was amazed to read the write up in todays Drive section of The Age where they comment that the Mkll XR8 they tested had noticeable driveline shunt. it was mentioned twice in the article, its good to see the media finally recognising the problem, they are the only ones with the clout to force action. They also said the shift on the new T56 was vague just like it is in the VZ. Makes you wonder why they bother, new gear box with a vague shift and the shunt uresolved Marketing over substance l guess, maybe they are trying to beat holden at their own game? Poor form Ford.

Both makers were also slammed for their brakes. They even commented that they had never driven a Ford that had not been fitted with the premium brake package. All in all, nothing glowing for Ford, they preffered the VZ overall.
Surprisingly the XR8 was more fuel effiecient and not by a small margin either.
 
#8 ·
As a high performance car consumer I really don't have a choice when it comes to V8's. Its either a Ford or a Holden. Hands are tied. Can't afford a BMW M3!
So as a consequence the build quality is lacking in both manufactures and they know I don't have a choice.
 
#10 ·
Its definitely not good...even my 6 has a pretty bad shunt...I don't let it annoy me because I know everyone else is in the same boat, but shit, isn't one of the companies smart enough to wipe out the problem and then reap the sales and better reviews??
 
#12 ·
I have a manual BA XR6 and am quite dissapointed with the driveline shunt, this is very much a substandard driveline in this day and age, my cars had its diff changed at the first service and i've been told a few times Ford are looking into it but as of the last repory, all they have come up with is to tell the dealers not to replace diffs in an attempt to fix the fault, how damm convenient - testing to save themselves money rather than actually fix the problem for its customers.

Now they release a new model nearly 2 years after the first release and its as bad as ever by the sounds of it. I just don't think Ford are to worried about the manual driveline shunt as its a small percentage of overall Falcon sales, and mostly in the XR range which would generally be purchased by us devoted Ford fans, some of us who are seriously re-evaluating buying a Ford again and WE are the people who Ford are desperately trying to attract with there renewed effort in V8Supercars!!!
 
#13 ·
RST2000 said:
found this on another site



i was amazed to read the write up in todays Drive section of The Age where they comment that the Mkll XR8 they tested had noticeable driveline shunt. it was mentioned twice in the article, its good to see the media finally recognising the problem, they are the only ones with the clout to force action. They also said the shift on the new T56 was vague just like it is in the VZ. Makes you wonder why they bother, new gear box with a vague shift and the shunt uresolved Marketing over substance l guess, maybe they are trying to beat holden at their own game? Poor form Ford.

Both makers were also slammed for their brakes. They even commented that they had never driven a Ford that had not been fitted with the premium brake package. All in all, nothing glowing for Ford, they preffered the VZ overall.
Just what do you get for you $2900 with the premium brake package? I am assuming it is the same as the GT how is it different from standard as the calipers look the same to me only painted? are the disks any bigger or anything. I know the GTP has Brembos,
 
#15 ·
Here is the same article SMH or available on www.drive.com.au

Mountain magic
By Bill McKinnon
The Sydney Morning Herald
Friday October 22 2004

The battle reached another milestone this month with updated models from both camps. It was time to get reacquainted with them to see how the goalposts have shifted.
We took the Commodore SS to Bathurst for race week and then returned to the mountain seven days later to unite the Ford with its Holden nemesis. With the black rubber streaks still fresh on the tarmac, Mount Panorama was the perfect backdrop for this latest Holden versus Ford encounter.
It proved to be test of endurance. One of the cars didn't make the journey home; we left it at Bathurst awaiting mechanical repair. To find out which one, you'll need to read on.
Holden Commodore SS
"Maaate, is this the k'n new one?" said the Bathurst larrikin as he leaned in the window for a closer look at our bright blue SS near the entrance to the track during race week.
It might not have been the compliment that Holden's team of trend-setting designers were looking for but at least he could spot the differences -- even with beer goggles on. "Washegolike?" he sprayed, revealing a couple of missing teeth.
It's impossible to underestimate the passion for Australian-made performance cars. And even though our mate didn't appear to have $50,000 to spend on a new Commodore SS, he absorbed every last detail with more keenness than his liver was absorbing amber fluid.
The VZ is the Commodore's last makeover before a new model arrives in March 2006 and, as a result, Holden has left nothing in its bag of tricks. The latest SS is the hottest Holden sedan ever built and, in terms of performance, the equivalent of a two-year-old Holden Special Vehicles Clubsport.
The hero colour -- Impulse Blue -- may attract the attention but the most significant changes are beneath the skin and behind the Commodore's sharp new nose.
Revheads will no doubt be excited by the fact that the 5.7-litre V8 now has more power and torque but the main reason for the jump in performance is that the Commodore SS now has the differential ratio it should have had all along (for the tech heads, it's a 3.73:1 instead of a 3.46:1). The result: it takes off like a slingshot and is now comfortable trundling along in sixth gear at 60kmh. Holden says the V8's electronic throttle also improves acceleration response but we suspect the gearing deserves most of the credit.
As with earlier updates, the modest power increase comes courtesy of modifications to the exhaust ("we took a few more bends out of it"). The Holden V8 sounds like a jet once it reaches high revs, but is still muted compared with the Ford.
What a pity, then, that the brakes feel weak. And this was even after Holden cheekily attempted to maximise their performance by machining the front discs for our test (see Them's the brakes, below). How car companies can continue to promote power without commensurate upgrades to braking systems beggars belief. Perhaps Holden and Ford will get it right next time around. Fingers crossed.
Holden engineers didn't touch the suspension, probably because they didn't need to. The new 18-inch wheels are wrapped in the familiar, highly regarded Bridgestone RE040s (the same tyres that first appeared on the V8 Monaro in 2001). They provide superb grip in the wet or dry and no doubt play a big role in the Commodore's sharp steering response and agile (for a sedan) handling. They are also quiet on both coarse-chip and smooth bitumen roads. The low-profile tyres slightly compromise ride quality, but it's a small, worthwhile sacrifice.
The steering feels the same as in previous models, even though the power steering system (long an Achilles heel of the Commodore) has been revised.
It's easy to take the headlights on locally made cars for granted but after spending some time away from a Holden, it was good to sit behind the Commodore's high-beams, which are particularly effective on dark country roads. The projector-style low-beams are good but not necessarily any better than conventional low-beam lights. Their purpose seems to be to make the car look upmarket. Which is fitting given that, with the latest model, the SS has gone to finishing school.
Ford Falcon XR8
Ford has been playing catch-up on the race track and in showrooms since it stopped building V8-powered performance sedans in the 1980s.
The company has since seen the error in its ways, embraced V8s again, reinvigorated its motorsport program and discovered a huge band of devotees who were waiting patiently for Ford to get back into gear.
After a strong season last year, Ford ended a five-year drought and put another V8 Supercar championship trophy on its shelf. Sales of performance Falcons are better than ever but still trail their Holden counterparts.
When the current BA series Falcon was released just over two years ago, Ford took the industry by surprise with a turbocharged six-cylinder Falcon XR6, which was so good that its performance embarrassed the traditional hero car, the XR8.
This forced Ford engineers to find a way to make the V8 earn its rightful place as a true-blue sports sedan and the company has chosen this month's minor facelift (a discreet MKII badge on the boot is the XR8's only external clue) to introduce the changes.
What they came up with were some suspension tweaks and a new six-speed manual gearbox. Unlike Holden, which tends to find 5kW or so for each upgrade, the XR8's power is the same as the previous model's.
As with all new Falcons, the XR8 has a luxurious ride and soaks up bumps and thumps with apparent ease. When the going gets rough, the XR8 is the nicer place to be.
On the downside, though, the big Ford's softer suspension means it is prone to lean more in corners. Ford says it has "tied down" the suspension with the new model but had Ford not said there was a change, I would never have guessed it.
On a series of bumpy bends, the Falcon still feels like it is trying to buck you out of the seat. The uneasiness is exacerbated by the fact that the steering feels too light in such scenarios. Around town, though, the steering is superbly sharp and effortless.
The grip is there but, overall, it doesn't feel as planted as the Commodore.
The brakes on the XR8 tested were easily superior to the Holden's but it is worth noting that they are a $2950 option. In our opinion, performance brakes should be standard on cars of this calibre (see below).
The XR8's new six-speed is the same as the one fitted to the Commodore SS but Ford has opted for different fifth- and sixth-gear ratios. The new gearbox (Ford has squeezed in an extra cog and reduced the spread of ratios compared with the old five-speed) is a huge improvement and explains why Ford didn't touch the engine. Despite the 3.46:1 diff ratio, the XR8 is only a few tenths of a second slower to 100kmh than the Holden.
As with the Commodore, the shift action is still clumsy but the biggest complaint about the XR8's driveline is the loud clunking from the differential. Whether changing gears in slow traffic or on the move on the open road, a loud thump can be heard under the rear seat. It sounds like the joint that links the tailshaft and the differential is loose.
The old XR8 used to have this trait and it is odd that, with all the changes, Ford couldn't iron out this noise. There is no suggestion that the driveline is about to fail but in 2004, this lack of refinement is unacceptable.
The Falcon still has ample storage cubbies (and every new Falcon still comes with a box of free tissues) and the instrument gauges still glow a brilliant blue at night. But previous criticisms have not been addressed. The groove in the dashboard (intended to create a cockpit effect around the driver) still reflects badly in the windscreen in direct sunlight and several switches are blocked from the driver's view by the steering wheel.
The best aspect of the XR8 is its exhaust note. How Ford managed to give its V8 such a deep, muscle-car roar while meeting noise restrictions is an engineering marvel. The exhaust note was intoxicating as it echoed off the concrete walls that line Mount Panorama. We couldn't get enough of the sound.
Imagine our disappointment, then, when we discovered that we couldn't take the XR8 back to Sydney with us. After a day of easy, open road driving and a handful of U-turns for photography, the power steering became heavy, developed a whining noise and there was fluid all over the engine bay. As a precaution, we took the XR8 to the Ford dealer at Bathurst before heading home.
Closer inspection revealed that the power steering pump had burst a seal. There were no spare pumps in stock (Ford says we should regard this as a sign that it is not a common failure) and so we left the XR8 in Bathurst. Game over.
The verdict
Comparing these two cars is almost a redundant exercise. Regardless of which one wins, Holden fans will still covet the Commodore SS and Ford fans will still favour the Falcon XR8. How many people dump their favourite football team because it didn't win the grand final?
The new Falcon XR8 is a leap forward for Ford and it now has an engine and gearbox to bring it into the 21st century. It is superbly refined in many ways, yet the clunk in its underbelly is hardly fitting on a $50,000 motor car. Despite apparent changes to the XR8's suspension, it still doesn't feel as sure-footed as the Commodore SS.
And that's the point. If these cars are supposed to be the real-world versions of the Bathurst race heroes, then it is the Commodore SS which sticks closest to the formula. The Holden has an amazing agility for a car of its size and is also at home as a big comfortable highway cruiser. Behind the wheel of the Commodore SS, there's a bit of Bathurst in every corner.
Them's the brakes
Despite their awesome V8 power and increases in performance over the years, the Ford and Holden sports sedans have the same brakes as a regular six-cylinder fleet car or taxi.
Want stopping power with that? That'll be $2750 on the Commodore SS and $2950 on the Falcon XR8, thanks very much.
We'd like to be able to tell you what a Falcon XR8 is like with standard brakes but we've never driven one in that guise. Every XR8 media evaluation vehicle we've driven since the BA Falcon was released has been equipped with larger, optional brakes. The NSW police now fits the premium brakes to its highway patrol cars after the standard brakes failed its test.
Holden has only just begun offering a premium brake package and its standard brakes also leave a lot to be desired on a car with as much grunt as the SS.
Holden cheekily machined the front discs between the time we had it for the Bathurst 1000 a fortnight ago and when we tested the same car a week later. Unfortunately for Holden, the brakes still felt as dull and uninspiring as they did the first time around.
Surely more power and faster acceleration should be accompanied by better brakes. Please, Holden and Ford, it's time to give your muscle cars the brakes to match their power -- without charging a premium for it.
Joshua Dowling
Red corner

Ford Falcon XR8 (2004 BA MKII)
Price: $51,275
Engine: 5.4-litre V8
Power: 260kW at 5250rpm
Torque: 500Nm at 4250rpm
Transmission: Six-speed manual (tested) or four-speed automatic with manual shift mode.
Weight: 1797kg
Fuel consumption: 14.1 litres/100km
Blue corner

Holden Commodore SS (2004 VZ)
Price: $50,990
Engine: 5.7-litre V8
Power: 250kW at 5700rpm
Torque: 470Nm at 4800rpm
Transmission: Six-speed manual (tested) or four-speed automatic.
Weight: 1654kg
Fuel consumption: 14.8 litres/100km
Don't speed
Other than race week, Mount Panorama's 6.2km circuit is a two-way access road to residential properties. You can drive around any time but don't try to imitate Peter Brock. Highway patrol police enforce the 60kmh limit every day.
Fuel for thought
The XR8 got surprisingly good fuel economy on the open road. The trip computer said the XR8 was drinking 11.5 litres/100km but our calculations showed that it was consuming only 11.1 litres/100km. While the Ford trip computer over-estimated average fuel consumption, the Holden trip computer under-estimated, claiming a figure of 10.5 litres/100km when the real figure, by our calculations, was closer to 11.2 litres/100km.
 
#17 ·
"(Ford says we should regard this as a sign that it is not a common failure)"

My Xr6 was on it's third power steering pump when i got rid of it.....
 
#20 ·
i havnt had my xr8 very long (2000kms) and have very little confidence in the standard brakes, after having it 2 days the car i was following at 100kms/hr nearly missed its turn off and braked fairly hard,i thought i had plenty of distance between us, i reacted and landed hard on my brakes and there was no way i was going to pull up in time, i ended up crossing the on coming traffic to go around the car,it was very close, i am really happy with everything else about the xr8 but am currently looking into a brake upgrade
 
#22 ·
farmer said:
i havnt had my xr8 very long (2000kms) and have very little confidence in the standard brakes, after having it 2 days the car i was following at 100kms/hr nearly missed its turn off and braked fairly hard,i thought i had plenty of distance between us, i reacted and landed hard on my brakes and there was no way i was going to pull up in time, i ended up crossing the on coming traffic to go around the car,it was very close, i am really happy with everything else about the xr8 but am currently looking into a brake upgrade
Yeh, i felt like that with my XR6T too when i 1st got it, but they feel a HEAP better now after 5200Km's. It feels like it will pull up better now.
 
#23 ·
micmansour said:
Premium brakes should be standard on the XR8...
The XR8 is availabe with premium brakes, sports suspension, sports seats, upgraded interior, nicer body kit & a more powerful engine for about $9000

You get a free build plate too. :hehe: :hehe: :hehe: :hehe:

Actually it is pretty good value.
XR8 $51k
Prem Brakes $3k
Interior Pack $4k

That means the body kit, suspension & Boss 290 are only $2k
 
#24 ·
micmansour said:
Premium brakes should be standard on the XR8...
YES!!!! The fact that every XR8 tested by the journo's has premiums really sends a message that the standard brakes are very marginal for this car. $3K is a big hit to option it.
 
#25 ·
I'm dissapointed to see they didn't take a look at the 150kg odd lard around the xr8's waistline over the SS. i thought after getting bashed by SS's and Clubby's in the series one they might have learnt somthing. Wrong again!
 
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