NEW wrinkle in the BA bad brakes saga??? - Page 2 - Ford Forums

Cazz · 07-06-2004, 00:16

I am sorry to disagree with you 75 hardtop about modern brakes. In the past 15 years, I have bought 10 brand new cars. I have had three magnas (sports, Altera and exec), Holden Vectra, current model Maxima (current car of course), 2003 BA ford, (I still have this car too) VN Commoddore, and two Nissan Skylines, and a holden van. Since 2000 I have had 5 new cars. None of the other cars exhibited the brake problems that I have with the BA. I have only very recently replaced the rotors on my one owner 1988 Skyline. After Market Rotors (DBA) were fitted. These brakes have done 3000 kays, and need machining coz they have a lip on them!!!!! I sent tham back to the supplier, and have put genuine Nissan ones back on. I figured if the first ones lasted 16 years and 165,000 kays, I couldn;t go worng. Up until this set of rotors being replaced on the nissan, I have never - ever replaced or had machined a set of rotors on any car I have had, no matter how many kays it had done. So I also disagree about driving style. My BA has now had the Caliper Shim fix, and the rotors machined AGAIN, but I am getting shudder again after 5,000 kays. As the owner of six cars, I think this is disgusting. I think if ford think they have a fix, they should retrofit all the BA's with the new calipers and rotors. But, they know that once the car is out of warranty, they won't have to worry about it anymore, and it's not their problem. At the same time, any BA built before october 2003 is going to suffer resale value problems because of the brakes. C'mon ford, get your act together.

russellw · 07-06-2004, 04:01

Let us take a moment to examine some facts here in general terms before we get to specifics.

1. Cars have been getting heavier progressively to the point where a BA V8 is near enough to 1700 kg.

2. Brake rotors have been getting lighter in total weight, mostly as a result of design changes and the decreasing wear surface.

3. Ford (and for that matter Holden who use the same suppliers) brakes have been progressively shortening in life. It was generally accepted that EF/EL rotors were often beyond their wear tolerance at 60k km and AU ones didn't last that long on many occasions.

4. Braking performance is a direct function of friction between the two wear surfaces (the rotor and the pad) and for any given level of performance compromises have to be made.

That's roughly the basics out of the way.

To improve braking performance the following paths can be taken by a manufacturer. These are not the only options available but they will do for our simplistic study.

1. Increase the total swept area - larger rotors and/or larger pads will achieve this however there are physical limitations to both these options based on the desired wheel rim size and suspension design.

2. Increase the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces - lots of lovely maths in this one but it boils down to sacrificing the longevity of pads and/or rotors in order to achieve improved efficiencies.

3. Reduce the vehicle weight for the same swept area of rotor.

Ok. For those who are still awake, we will go back to the points raised in the beginning.

Option 3 is obviously ruled out as the vehicles are getting heavier.

Option 1 is restricted by the packaging limitations mentioned. Rotor sizes have increased slightly in the last decade but not as much as the weight would dictate. The other methods of improving swept area or the performance of that area such as multiple piston calipers and grooved rotors is not an option generally favoured by manufacturers on a budget.

Option 3 is the nice cheap option. In simplistic terms; softer pads and rotors improve the effectiveness of the combination as the sacrificial nature of the braking provides improved braking performance. This option also meets the manufacturer criteria of having little incremental cost as the additional wear is borne by the customer.

Conventional wisdom in the days when rotors wore hard surfaces, dictated a reasonably hard pad for longevity but performance suffered accordingly. Current race wisdom calls for a reasonably soft pad and an intermediate rotor in conjunction with effective cooling to provide maximum braking efficiency.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that you can put harder pads in your late model Falcadore and they will shorten the (already short) rotor life. Braking performance may improve under duress as a result of the change as the pads are likely to have more initial bite but that is the sacrifice you will make.

Likewise you can put a rotor on like the DBA slotted which provides better overall performance and greater resistance to heat build up but if it is matched with a reasonably quiet (and thus soft) pad then the pad life is likely to be poor.

It's all a trade off. A set of pads and rotors that have a 5k km life will provide significantly improved braking performance over an identically constructed set that has a 60k km life. Personally I take the view that the price paid for performance braking components is cheap insurance against injury or major panel damage and while I would like to see longer pad/rotor life I am prepared to accept the compromise position.

By way of postscript it is fair to say that some degree of the shudder apparent in both major brands is a direct function of suspension design and the reduction in rotor weights. A large and heavy rotor has a degree of inherent balance as a result of the actual weight. I'm not saying that it is acceptable because it isn't - just an unwanted side effect.

Cheers
Russ

BossyXR8 · 07-06-2004, 04:14

CAZZ - and again I totally agree with you. Sorry folks, but there aint NO excuse for the sub-standard engineering we are seeing on these brake systems (especially on an otherwise fantastic car).

I've owned new and used cars from quite a few other manufacturers and I've never had problems like this with the brakes. I too had a Mitsubishi Magna sports and I never had a single issue with it from New to 50000 km - period. I've had the Ford for 10000 km and so far its been in for warranty related items about 6 times (doesn't help that Ford shops never have the part you need so you always have to back again once they get them in). That's the JIT approach for ya !

Don't get me wrong, I love the car, and I don't regret buying it (yet) but my patience is runnung out on this braking issue. I'm going to investigate the cheapest aftermarket calliper, Rotor and pad package.

supermono · 07-06-2004, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

Let us take a moment to examine some facts here in general terms before we get to specifics.

1. Cars have been getting heavier progressively to the point where a BA V8 is near enough to 1700 kg.

2. Brake rotors have been getting lighter in total weight, mostly as a result of design changes and the decreasing wear surface.

A simple man's thinking would allow the conclusion that weight reduction in components would give us cars that are lighter overall. Given that in the case of the BA brakes this weight reduction is cost driven, I conclude that too many of Ford's engineers are part time Accountants.

Or, they should have failed their exams.

Aussie Pete · 07-06-2004, 16:49

After Russ's well said post, I'll tell you all who are whining about how Ford cut costs on these brakes that after 27000km my Brembo equipped FPV suffers noticeable brake shudder at speeds above 80km/h. Now tell me it's a cost thing!

I also note heavy wear on the front rotors. Heavy dust buildup. Squealing at lower speeds (think truck with badly adjusted drums). But it's all a cost of having brakes that work over a broad range of temperatures from the first stop on a cold winter morning to the hardest stop into turn 2 at Eastern Creek.

I'm not saying what you see is right JR but be aware that I have experienced extremely high temps in basic equipped cars on the track. To give some perspective my Pursuit brakes got so hot on the FPV driver day the paint on the calipers burnt, the valve caps melted into the valves, and the discs blued. It's just as easy to get these peak temps in your car which is what I suspect. I had a HSV a few years back which melted the dust seals, warped the pad backing plate, and the brakes caught fire - just from two laps at Oran Park. We started cutting custom pads with extra thick backing plates after that.

Cazz · 07-06-2004, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie Pete

After Russ's well said post, I'll tell you all who are whining about how Ford cut costs on these brakes that after 27000km my Brembo equipped FPV suffers noticeable brake shudder at speeds above 80km/h. Now tell me it's a cost thing!

I also note heavy wear on the front rotors. Heavy dust buildup. Squealing at lower speeds (think truck with badly adjusted drums). But it's all a cost of having brakes that work over a broad range of temperatures from the first stop on a cold winter morning to the hardest stop into turn 2 at Eastern Creek.

I'm not saying what you see is right JR but be aware that I have experienced extremely high temps in basic equipped cars on the track. To give some perspective my Pursuit brakes got so hot on the FPV driver day the paint on the calipers burnt, the valve caps melted into the valves, and the discs blued. It's just as easy to get these peak temps in your car which is what I suspect. I had a HSV a few years back which melted the dust seals, warped the pad backing plate, and the brakes caught fire - just from two laps at Oran Park. We started cutting custom pads with extra thick backing plates after that.

A very good friend of mine has a Brembo Equipped Nissan 350Z, After 40,000 kays (1 set of pads), and a fair bit of track work, it has not had to have new rotors, or any machining. As far as I know and am informed, Brembo equipped fords, still have Ford Rotors, not Brembo! The calipers and pads are Brembo, but not the Rotors. My Jan 2004 Maxima has just covered 10,000 kays in exactly the same conditions as my BA Fairmont, it has used 50% less fuel, has had no warranty problems, (my BA has been back to the dealer 22 times), and is actually quicker. For the same money, I know what I will be buying again. I am really sorry, but I refuse to believe that the brake problems, air bag problems, tailshaft problems and extremely poor paint and various things that fall off, problems are anything other than cost driven. My Maxima makes the BA feel like a taxi. The only plus side to the BA is that it is rear wheel drive. That is really not relevant when you look at all the problems I have had with mine. And it appears from these forums that I am not the only one. All of you AU drivers, count your selves lucky. Obviously ford was not in a hurry to build as many of these as they could, and they built them properly.

Aussie Pete · 07-06-2004, 22:50

The FPVs use genuine Brembo front rotors.

BossyXR8 · 07-07-2004, 03:26

HA ha - well said supermono.

Cazz - that really sux. 22 times is a bloody joke. I'd be losing my sense of humour by now. I hope you've written to Ford Australia.

Brembos are an option on the 350z, part of a sports pack. I took my mates 350z for a spin, and am glad to say that I actually prefer driving my XR8 (except for brakes of course). Just love that V8 punch !

My standard brakes last 4 laps at Wakefield park (one or two of which is a warm up) and rotors are then warping with the heat, end of session !. I take it for a slow drive to cool them off and they seem to come good. Thermal shock can totally screw brake components so make sure that you do a warm up and cool down before and after heavy driving.

Wow Aussie Pete - that's the first time I've ever heard complaints about Brembos. Are you sure the shudderring is the brakes !

Perana XR8 · 07-07-2004, 03:40

AP has had a lot of trouble with the Brembos on his ute, heres just 2 of many threads on it.

Brembo Brakes - Are They Worth the $6k?
Brembo Brakes on Tickford and FPV Utes - The Saga Ends?

RevHeadRon · 07-07-2004, 04:04

had a guy from ford in at work the other day who fitted dba slotteds and LUCAS pads to his XR8 and totally fixed his problems, this however is not an advertisment just info i can pass on to you guys.
and for another bit of info most of the pads we supply to ford are lucas pads