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No spare tyre for BAII ???

6K views 33 replies 26 participants last post by  MaD_WoG 
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#1 ·
On another post about cutting the weight of the BAII, some members started talking about cutting weight by removing the spare tyre and using tyres that could be driven for 200 kms on a flat tyre, at 80 km/h. I am curious about this tyre as it seems to be a rather expensive process. Lets look at the costs:

- when cornering at 80 km/h, the flat tyre is not goigf to offer much protection to the alloy rim, especially on some of Australia's poor excuse for roads. This is going to mean a possible rim replacement (possible cost; between $400 and $800 a rim)

- driving on a flat tyre for any longer than about 5 mins is also going to mean having to replace the tyre completely rather than just have it repaired as the sidewall will be cactus. (possible cost; between $180 for 16in rubber and $300 for for 18in)

so we are up to around $580 - $600 if you get a flat tyre on 16in wheels and anywhere from $800 to $1100 to replace ONE wheel and tyre at 18in size.

All this just to save what? 40kg? 50kg? I think Ford would have a hard time trying to justify that one. To me, replacing the current spare tyre system is pointless as the current method works fine. If you have to save some weight somewhere, why not use the european/asian method; just supply a 'space saving' spare tyre. These spares are only half the width of a normal spare and a designed to get the car home or to the tyre service. It is also good as it means the driver doesn't forget to get the flat tyre fixed and therefore is not going to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night with a flat tyre on his car and another flat in the boot. Anyway what do you think? Should Ford employ a space saver for the BAII or continue with the current method?
 
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#2 ·
I say dump the tyre and don't worry about the drive flat or space saver alternative. Maybe I have been lucky but I can't remember when the last time was I had a puncture or flat (slow leaks still happen but less urgent). We all have to let go of that security blanket sometime.

Ford don't give me a spare battery or belts to lug around and in my experience these have been less reliable than my tyres. I'd take the risk. What with mobile phone technology and GPS your not exactly at risk of death on our national highways if you have tyre trouble and how many times have you seen someone ring up the NRMA to change the spare anyway.
 
#4 ·
Raptor, i initally was thinking like you until i got a tyre blowout in my EF down the freeway. :bigeyes: :bigeyes: Luckily though it went completely kaput (flat) at the exit ramp of the motor way where i was able to pull over in a relatively safe spot.

Oh yeah thats the benefit of having a 60 series tyre, i had to drive on the rim abit to get the car to the emergency lane, didn't even scratch the rim.

Keep the spare i say. As to these run flat tyres i don't want to pay another $200 per tyre because of this technology.
 
#5 ·
falconS said:
Lets look at the costs:
Let's look at the facts...

  • Extensive testing of run-flat tyres at BMW found that there were no noticeable tradeoffs in performance, handling or comfort,
  • Run-flat tyres will not damage the vehicle's rims when run deflated on coarse road surfaces,
  • Run-flat technology features reinforced sidewalls that bear the weight of the vehicle even when totally deflated.

I just don't think that run-flat technology is as damaging to a vehicle as you have made it out to be. If you can back up your costs with any independent tests that support your post then I would be very interested to see it.
 
#6 ·
I'm with you on this one RPO83...

They are called 'run-flat' tyres for a reason....they can be "RUN"..."FLAT"....simple really.

I remember watching an episode of Beyond2000 where they were testing these new run-flat tyres....from memory there was very little sacrifice to comfort or control when they were flat.
 
#7 ·
ah - but what about cowboys like myself who do extensive country highway/dirt road driving (entirely hypothetically, coz if i had a BA it wouldn't be the rally car that my EA is...)

i know i would DEFINATELY want at least a space saver spare in a new car, preferable a full size (even at the expense of performance) - and i'd prefer not to have to bolt it to the bonnet, 60's Landie style....
 
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#8 ·
Run flats have a rubber ring inside the tyre so even when the tyre goes flat it only drops onto the ring. They are fine to drive on. Dirt and whatever doesnt matter... you wouldnt go racing on a flat tyre though and expect equal performance to the inflated version. This things are emergency stop gaps so keep it real. I don't really remember my last flat... 6 years ago maybe??
With the run flats I have read about I was under the impression you dont replace the inner ring when you replace the tyre so I am not sure why they would cast so much more. Remember most people drive around with a $700 + wheel/tyre in the boot, isn't that a waste too?
 
#9 ·
MADXF said:

I remember watching an episode of Beyond2000 where they were testing these new run-flat tyres....from memory there was very little sacrifice to comfort or control when they were flat.
If these tyres provide the same level of comfort and handling when flat, as they do unflat(!), why not just use flat tyres all the time??

No more worrying about correct tyre pressures and more importantly you will never ever have to worry about a flat, cause its already flat!!!
 
#10 ·
xf_xr6 said:
If these tyres provide the same level of comfort and handling when flat, as they do unflat(!), why not just use flat tyres all the time??

No more worrying about correct tyre pressures and more importantly you will never ever have to worry about a flat, cause its already flat!!!
Run-flat tyres have limitations on how long they can be used for and have a certain speed limit that they can be run at.
 
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#12 ·
RPO83, i know nothing about run flat tyres, so I will take your word for it that they dont damage the rims, I wrote that post in a hurry in between uni classes, and i didnt do any research, so sue me.

However, after reading all your posts i still think that a run-flat tyre would cause some damage to the side wall of the tyre causing it to have to be replaced, rather than repaired.

BlacksnakeEA, i too travel on gravel roads. In fact before I moved to Brisbane, then to Toowoomba, i used to drive on gravel roads at least twice a day for a year, and i what you guys who have never driven on loose gravel before mightn't know is that if your tyres are underinflated on gravel, you have considerably less control. (by the way blacksnake, very funny post; rally car EA, spare tyre strapped to the bonnet landrover style, LOL.)

As for Hollowpoints claim of most people driving around with $700 + of wheel and tyre in the boot; It is my understanding that the majority of cars use only a steel rim, usually 16 or 15 in with standard rubber (i.e dunlop monza, bridgestone RE92, etc) which equates to only about $300 worth. However, with a space saver, you can almost half the cost, and you would probably never need to buy a new tyre for the space saver rim, as you would only drive on it to the tyre service, then it would go back into the boot.

Raptor, you stated that ford don't give you a spare battery or belts. Well they didn't come with the XF i bought either but that didn't stop me from purchasing a couple of belts to keep in the boot as well as some jumper leads.

Raptor, surely you aren't that ignorant. You also stated that

"What with mobile phone technology and GPS your not exactly at risk of death on our national highways if you have tyre trouble and how many times have you seen someone ring up the NRMA to change the spare anyway."

Are you suggesting that when my car got a flat at 11 pm, just 40 kms outside of Dalby (which is a town of about 10,000 people, only 215kms west of Brisbane) i should have just rang the NRMA/RACQ to come and change my tyre? Damn, silly old me, I got my hands dirty for nothing. Except that I couldn't because the digital phone coverage ends 30 kms outside of Dalby, unless you have a car kit, which, at the time I didn't. Yes, there is CDMA coverage well past Dalby, but I dont have a CDMA phone, and a lot of people don't. So don't go saying how a spare tyre is unneccessary, because until you have had a flat, in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night, you won't understand.

http://www.wilmap.com.au/qldmaps/seqld.html

http://www.telstra.com.au/mobilenet/network/data.cfm?type=d&state=2&loc=south_east_queensland

thats my rant and rave for the day.

signing off.
 
#13 ·
space saver tires a useless, would you want to drive round on a motorbike wheel and 3 235/45 17s? it puts the whole car off balance and changes the handling of the car and they have no grip.

im pretty sure with run flat tires they also include a can of tire weld that inflates the tire and temporarily fixes the hole until it can be properly repaired. i think make run flat tires standard and you

*Raptor, you stated that ford don't give you a spare battery or belts. Well they didn't come with the XF i bought either but that didn't stop me from purchasing a couple of belts to keep in the boot as well as some jumper leads.*

well then if the car comes with run flat tires you can buy a spare steel wheel and tire to put in the boot?

i say make run flat tires standard, ditch the spare and if someone wants a spare wheel they can get it from the factory. bonus being an increase in boot space, although depending on how heavy spare wheels are it could change the front/rear balance?
 
#14 ·
Ever since the last time I had a flat, I have not believed in spare wheels. It was a slow leak, and when it came to taking off the old wheel, the nuts were on far too tightly! I didn't need a spare wheel, just one of those foam cans to temporarily inflate it so I could have it repaired. I am going to carry one of these cans instead of a spare wheel in future.

The only scenario this does not cover is a more serious puncture, but I'm willing to take that risk. It's not really a safety issue, more of a convenience one.

My opinion is that spare wheels should be optional for those who want them.
 
#15 ·
I have changed so many tires in my life, of other peoples cars (like girls or guys that dont know how to), that wouldn't have a clue what to do if they didnt have a spare.

But it raises a couple other issues
1) if I didnt stop to help, they wouldnt have gone anywhere anyway,
2) if they had run flat tires, they wouldnt have to stop, and
3) half the spare tires people carry around are flat anyway, hardly anyone checks them.

I do wonder about big blowouts though, you'd be stranded without them. For someone like me, who does alot of interstate highway trips, a spare is well worth the compromise of weight. It doesnt change my fuel economy by much at all to ditch it, and there's no way I want to run at 80 kph for several hours then have to find a place that can sell me another tire at midnight. I'll always carry one, regardless of run flat or normal tires.
 
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#16 ·
falconS said:
RPO83, i know nothing about run flat tyres.........
and i didnt do any research................
Why would you post if you obviously know nothing about the technlogy and then claim that others don't know what they are talking about?

falconS said:

However, after reading all your posts i still think that a run-flat tyre would cause some damage to the side wall of the tyre causing it to have to be replaced, rather than repaired.
You are wrong. Maybe iy you drove on it outside the specifications/safety guidelines imposed on they tyre you may do some damage.

falconS said:

As for Hollowpoints claim of most people driving around with $700 + of wheel and tyre in the boot; It is my understanding that the majority of cars use only a steel rim, usually 16 or 15 in with standard rubber (i.e dunlop monza, bridgestone RE92, etc) which equates to only about $300 worth. However, with a space saver, you can almost half the cost, and you would probably never need to buy a new tyre for the space saver rim, as you would only drive on it to the tyre service, then it would go back into the boot.
Once again you are spouting rumour without fact. Most cars with factory fitted alloy wheels as standard use an alloy spare.
Have you ever priced a new space saver spare tyre and rim? They are majorly, majorly expensive. In fact I know of one Japanese manufacturer where the space saver tyres are more expensive than the standard alloys on the car. It also quite hard to find replacement tyres for many space saver tyres in case one was damaged.
Space saver tyres are also speed limited to 80km/h in most cases and still take up their fair share of room. Not too mention you still have to change it.
I would not really trust my wife to competently change a tyre in the event of a flat. If you ask around the motor profession, in which I am a part, how many mechanics have seen tyres ruined because people have driven on them flat. Then ask them how many wheels they have seen ruined by incorrect fitment. I have seen a few. Women not doing wheel nuts up tight enough and the wheel flops around until ruined permanently. Overtightening is just as bad. Snapped wheel studs are not unheard of. The biggest problem these days when fitting wheels is that manufacturers are alwayls looking for ways to save weight and thinner brake discs are becoming more and more common. If you overtighten the wheel nuts it warps the disc. This is such a problem that Nissan released a bulletin specially in regard to this problem for the current Patrol.

When a run flat goes flat... it doesn't. They tyre doesn't go down as such.... the ring holds it up. Do you know how thick the ring is inside the tyre? If it is good enough for Mercedes and BMW then I guess it will do me. Both these manufacturers use tyres on some models designed to still run after being shot with a gun. SHOT WITH A GUN. That is a pretty harsh test wouldn't you say?

falconS said:

thats my rant and rave for the day.
signing off.
Please supply some facts or basis for your posts as opposed to idle speculation. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion please gain some knowledge of your own before dismissing other members opinions as incorrect. Thankyou.
 
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#17 ·
well thanks for straightening my misguided ideas about run flat tyres. (I am not being sarcastic) They sound pretty good. Yes, i would have to agree that shooting a tyre with a gun then driving on it is a pretty good test. I will admit i was wrong about them yet i will probably still be inclined to take a spare even if it was an option, purely so that if I was doing a long trip, I wouldn't have to drive at 80 kms.

However, I noticed that you didn't have much to say about mobile phones in remote areas this time.

signing off.
 
#18 ·
falconS said:
......Raptor, surely you aren't that ignorant......
'
Nah mate I'm not.

As you clearly travel in regions where it is wise to not only have a decent spare but also a set of belts and probably a few other bits and peices, good for you on sourcing these and being well prepared.

As for the 90+% of Aussies that live in Metropolitan centres and never venture further than the National highways that connect them I still reckon the spare should be tossed. It is a throwback to a period when on a typical Sunday drive you could reasonable expect a breakdown or two and a routine wheel/tyre replacement. Technology has moved on. Cars today are much more reliable in every area and a mechanical failure today is rare on well maintrained cars less than 10years old.

My point was the manufacturer doesn't provide replacement items such as belts or batteries (or even fuses?) which often expire more frequently than tyres in my experience and will leave you just as stranded.

It's all a matter of likelyhood-of-failure vs consequences. When I look at that equation for the driving I do I'll forgo the spare for the extra storage space and reduced weight. If I'm heading off on a long road trip sure, I might take one with me along with a set of belts and a few tools but for day-to-day, nah!
 
#19 ·
Guys & Gals,

Run-flats have already proven themselves for over 4 years now.

Every Corvette since '97 has been fitted with them. When GM designed the C5 corvette, they deliberately went for a larger boot with NO area for a spare wheel well at all.

That's a lot of corvettes on USA roads, and we haven't heard of any deaths or lawsuits yet?
 
#20 ·
The problem here is easy to solve. If you want a spare tyre well have one as a option with your new car or use the new high tec tyres.
I have a xr with a Ford supplied 80km max speed spare. This tyre is all I need to get me 200k west of Dalby on a Sunday morning at 5 am to Dalby. But with the same sitution with tec tyres I am not so sure I would get there for repairs. Oh and I have both a dig & cdma phone but I still think I may be waiting a long time for racq to turn up, it takes a hour or more in the city just for a battery start. I for one know that you just don't know when you will get a flat.
 
#21 ·
yea lets look at the facts .....Australian roads are 3rd world when compared to the auto bahns,,,,try driving around queenslands country roads or even 3/4 s of brisbanes suburbs and u would be surprised....also.....having driven/operated truck mounted cranes up to 100 tonne around the citys u seems learn to work out the pros and cons.........oh and what ir the genetic make up of the stuff the pass off as asphelt?......polystyene?
 
#22 ·
Australia is different in that there are vast areas in this country where a run flat tyre would not cut it. BMW Australia recently stated that where possible they ask the parent company for full spare tyres with their cars. With a regular spare you can switch it over and drive around while the other is being fixed. You can drive as far as you like and switch the tyre back when you have spare time. If you get a blow out and have no spare you are stuffed whether you have the foam repair kit or not. A regular spare only costs a car company $150 with a steel wheel and a reasonable quality tyre. A set of run-flats will cost extra and I'll bet it is more than $150 extra per set compared to a regular tyre. My EL XR6 has a 5 alloy wheel set rather than 4 with a steel wheel spare
 
#23 ·
I hardly ever used the spare tyre, however in the last 2 and 1/2 months I've had four flats! Unbelievable! Beaurepaires know me too well........

By the way, if you get a flat, ask your tyre repairer if they are repairing the puncture per Australian Standard. Virtually none of them do. Most use external worms which do not meet the requirements. That's why I use Beaurepaires who remove the tyre, do the checks, and use an internal patch/plug. No point in compromising your safety especially if you are using high performance tyres.
 
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#24 ·
My dealership has fitted 100's upon 100's of push in safety seals (worms) and not had one come back. In saying that though to be an Australian Standards approved dealer for ISO quality control you must use the internal patch/pull through type repair. We have not bothered with the standards association stuff so it isn't an issue. I just don't regard worms as unsafe.
People keep talking about blowouts. I can't recall seeing a newish tyre have a blowout when properly inflated and maintained. I have seen retreads and old tyres blow out. We are not talking about old tyres though... these are new cars and the tyres will always be in use, not sitting around doing nothing getting old in the boot.
For about 99% of my driving a run flat would do me just fine. In all honesty though, if I was driving away on a long trip I would slip in a spare of some sort rated for at least 110km. Can't imagine being stuck at 80 going to QLD.
One thing some people do not realise though is just how unsafe changing a tyre is. People stop next to a road with cars whizzing by so they can change a flat. Surely some of you have read in the paper or seen the news where people have been hit changing tyres or had the car run into. I remember one where a truck took out a car. Another one I know of was at Caves Beach where a guy got hit by a car when he broke down/flat tyre (can't remember which). BDave351 nearly stopped to help the guy... lucky he didn't cos he was going the other way on divided road. Also think of some of the arseholes who would take advantage of your mum or missus who has had to stop and wait for the NRMA.
Run flats... good idea if you think about it.... you just have to manage to control yourself a bit til you have a repair made.
Aussie Pete... have you pissed off a neighbour or something mate? 4 flats in 2.5 months.... that is just really bad luck.
As for mobile phones in Australia... thay all suck. Get some coverage going and we will be much better.
 
#25 ·
hehe I reckon an ultra light full sized spare ( alloy or similar ) and a can of tyre inflate would see most motorists through, if its a small puncture and they dont know how to change a tyre, use the can, if the tyre is shredded to pices, bolt on the ultra light full sized spare
 
#26 ·
I think that run-flat tyres are a great bit of progress, but I am still not prepared to accept limited-distance solutions as a replacement. Not with the distances we cover in this country. Yes it would be ok most of the time, but what about long trips? Face it, you’re going to struggle to get a flat tyre fixed outside normal business hours (over 70% of every week) virtually anywhere.
Similar to what Six_in_a_Row said, now that tyres are becoming so wide, why not have a space saver tyre that you can still do 110 on, along the lines of a standard steel wheel & tyre instead of wider alloy (so long as it goes over the brakes). This would give a width of 200mm instead of 250mm. Shallower spare wheel well, more boot space. Yes you would have to drive more carefully, but you would be able to keep going. With run-flats, you could then get a second puncture, refit the run-flat and get to the nearest garage at reduced speed. If it is that important to still drive the car 100% (eg motorsport), carry a matching spare as well for that short period.
One of my cars this is exactly what I do. The wide wheel won’t physically fit in the spare wheel slot, so I have a standard wheel there. If I don’t want the fun to stop if I get a puncture, I’ll carry the matching spare as well, otherwise just be careful on the way home on the skinnier tyre.
 
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