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Australian Falcons Discuss the australian born and bred models here. Includes the 80's 90's and present day Falcons offered by Ford Oz.

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Old 07-13-2004, 03:05   #1 (permalink)
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mad Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Can anyone shed some light on the recent "LS1Edit" phenomenon.
Gen 3 commodores can now run down the quarter in less then 12 sec with
just a full exhaust, mafless tune and a diff ratio change.

I mean i know theres a difference in capactiy 5.7 Vs 5.0 and the higher compression 10:1 Vs 9.4:1 i think, and they rev out to 6200rpm
but seriously what more is in it.

Whats stopping a Ford 5.0L from running down the quarter in similar times given the capactiy was matched and the modifications were the same. I know EBs -ELs are handicapped the most (bar the GTs and sprints)with the
restrictive HO inlet mainfold and heads, 50mm maf etc.. but what AU models?

Is it because they are all alloy? much lighter than the all iron windsor?

They're a much better design in general then the injected 5.0L? higher flowing heads, bigger cam, high flow intake manifold etc...

They rev out more?

More efficient engine mangement compared to Fords EEC?

Or is this a pointless thread and all these questions are contributing factors to why LS1s are faster and more powerful and Ford just needs a ECU edit program like LS1edit to unlock the 5.0Litres performance.
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Old 07-13-2004, 03:21   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

The LS1 was a highly refined engine, the Windsor is more or less unchanged since the old GT's

The LS1 has more cubes
Alumium block, heads, pistons etc for around 185 kg's when FULL of oil

If someone was to UNIcHIP a AU XR8 they might get closer to the LS1's but i doubt it
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Old 07-13-2004, 03:22   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Can't compare an LS1 to a 40 year old windsor. For starters with the mods mentioned above NO LS1 will run under 12's, in fact, most with those mods owuld be very low 13's. Ask TeamKiwi!

Secondly, the LS1 has a capacity advantage. Look at what happened when the stroked the windsor! Theres still alot left in the windsor, but you just need to work them. The 5.4L is Fords 21st Centruy V8, and it's the one thats now taking the fight right to the lighter, larger capacity Gen III engines.
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Old 07-13-2004, 03:25   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceCraft
The LS1 was a highly refined engine, the Windsor is more or less unchanged since the old GT's

The LS1 has more cubes
Alumium block, heads, pistons etc for around 185 kg's when FULL of oil

If someone was to UNIcHIP a AU XR8 they might get closer to the LS1's but i doubt it
They won't be full of oil for long! Must be why they go so hard they are fre revving!

I got a dead stock XR8 auto running high 14's. I'm curious how My car would go with a unichip. If I didn't have other planned mods down the track I'd get a unichip now.
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Old 07-13-2004, 03:34   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra
Can't compare an LS1 to a 40 year old windsor. For starters with the mods mentioned above NO LS1 will run under 12's, in fact, most with those mods owuld be very low 13's. Ask TeamKiwi!

Secondly, the LS1 has a capacity advantage. Look at what happened when the stroked the windsor! Theres still alot left in the windsor, but you just need to work them. The 5.4L is Fords 21st Centruy V8, and it's the one thats now taking the fight right to the lighter, larger capacity Gen III engines.
I personally no someone who has VY SV8 and has done those mods and his runnin a high 4 second 0-100km, Dynoed with 234kw.
Take a look at the LS1 Forums, theres a few VYs N/A unopened runnin high 12s, low 13s.

I know Fords new Quad Cam BOSS engine would easily take on the LS1s given 7 or so years aftermarket tuners have had since there release.
So I didnt bother comparing the two, but really the BOSS was due 6 years ago and now the LS2 is just around the corner.
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:23   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

The LS1 worked can be a very potent little engine, but that's just it, to get it moving you need LS1 edit, exhaust, etc, and the same goes for the Windsor,they need a little work aswell, it would be quite acheivable to get the AU's into the low 13's high 12's with some work, there's just not as many tuner's out there that like to play with the 5lt compared to the LS1, but the windsor has been doing those time's for yr's so they can do the time,I would imagine an 220kw AU with, exhaust,chip, diff change and some slight other tweak's could achieve these time's.
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:49   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Theres a few unopened LS1's running 12's I know. But with just exhaust and edit? Well we allready have a 12 second unopened BOSS, rod's pursuit 290. Theres a few other BA's in the mid 13's and I'm sure in time they will drop down and gradually get to the 12's aswell.

As for the AUIII XR8, they run mid to low 14's stock. I woudl imagine with exhaust, chip, 3.7's you would get them doing mid 13's with not too much difficulty.
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Old 07-13-2004, 05:55   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Like they said doesnt take much to turn the GEN III into a beast. Exhaust,LS1 edit and bigger throttle body and youve got yourself a beast!
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Old 07-13-2004, 06:06   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

Just because the Windsor and the LS1 both have pushrods, don't think they are really simular in many other ways.

Windsor is old school, it wasn't even super cool old school. Ford didn't really develop it as regularly as they should have.

LS1 is all modern, clean sheet stuff. If anyone was going to design a pushrod engine for the 21st century, LS1 is how you would do it. Lightweight, compact, revs its nuts off, great breathing ability despite pushrods, capacity, Bar DOHC and multivalve it gets all the other technology, knock sensors, coil on plug, modern computer etc etc..

You can get a windsor to that kind of level, but you would be looking at new heads, new pistons, new cam, chip or new computer, etc etc most of the time. Only really the 220Kw and 250kw engines got some pretty sweet kit standard, and they are pretty kick arse anyway.

LS1 was detuned, we all know that, holden didn't do jack really from VTII through to VYII, right up to the 285Kw clubby.. That means the 220kw engine shares most/stacks of components with the 285Kw soon to be 300Kw LS1. Hence why with a edit and some minor mods (intake and exaust) there is power to be had.

Windsor is a 1960's class rather pedestrian engine, with some tweaks to get it into a semi recent age. The LS1 is a brand spanking new engine, designed for its high performance cars, GM spent stacks developing it, and it shows..

Its got a 700cc advantage, it revs higher and harder, its lighter, its got a modern ignition system, pretty trick engine management, breaths stacks better, runs a higher compression ratio..

There is not really huge hidden untapped potential in the windsor, you can make it better, but you have to pay for each upgrade.. Theres no way just a chip it going to unleash another 200kw out of a 165Kw 5.0 in a ED..
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Old 07-13-2004, 06:27   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Why are Fords 5L slower compared to LS1s

So *why* exactly does it breath better? The deisgn of the chamber? The design of the intake/exhaust channels in the head? The positioning of the valves? The stroke ? The cylinder spacing?

Unless we're talking about the 80/20 rule - where 80 percent of the time is spent on refining just 20 percent of the design - I too am not sure why one engine with similar technology is vastly superior to another.


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