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F%$&(*&^%ING clutch dramas!!

5K views 28 replies 15 participants last post by  WBT56 
#1 ·
well, the previous owner (grrr i dont like him any more!!) thought he was doing the car a favour and when the old clutch wore out he put in a heavy duty one (WTF for?!?!?! its a NA XR6!!! not a blown big block!!!)

this at 100,000km

1 bought the car at 110,000km and it now has 128,000km on it.

since i bought it the 'fingers' on the clutch lever have opened twice, the firewall actually started TEARING where the cable goes though it, and the little thingo that holds the cable at the peadal box end of the car has spread twice as well, last night at 12:00 and now today straight after i band-aided it so i could drive to get parts tomorrow.

the spot welds for the clutch pedal pivot have also started to tear off, so now the pedal is on an angle and at the bottom of its travel it hits on the pedal box.

so tomorrow i am getting a new pedal box and clutch cable (its the only thing in the whole system that hasnt shat itself yet).

i am expecting it to be very expensive and painfull to fit.

the actual point of this post is to find out if there ever was a vehicle fitted with a T5 gearbox that had a hydraulic clutch setup, because i am dead set on converting the bloody car and i need to find compatible parts.

P.S. think twice before fitting a heavy duty clutch to your manual falcon!!!!!
 
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#3 ·
This is becoming as notorious as XD door handles. As has been said before, a good quality HD clutch need not have a heavier pedal. Going to hydraulic will make no difference, you would still be exerting the same forces on the pedal and firewall. Remove the pedal box and brace it and the firewall, and fit a quality clutch kit.
 
#5 ·
I just had my clutch cable replaced and the firewall strengthened on both sides because of this problem. It cost about $130 for the clutch cable supplied and fitted and the firewall strengthening was about $90. The clutch is has a lighter and springier feel to it now because the cable is no longer cutting into the cable sleeve. And I can push the clutch in without the firewall coming with it.

If you need a new pedal box, it really isn't that hard to remove the console. All the wiring comes with it and just unplugs. gmanEA, those prices are $$$! I got my pedal box AND T5 fitted for $590. (Although I did loosen the entire console myself but left it installed). That was just normal price that anyone can get too.
 
#6 ·
I had the same problem....the clutch pedal bent itself off its mounting, had it taken out and reinfocred...cost $340 but i got ripped off....never goin to that mechanic again...my current mechanic said around $250 to do.

Stereo doesnt have to come out though...well mine didnt...the only thing that pied me off were the squeks and rattles that came form the dash after...it took a while for me to find them and silicon then, but its all good now.

clutch cable was $60 and PBR clutch kit (clutch plate, pressure plate and thrust bearing) was $450 installed...all up (with the guy that ripped me off) it cost $850
 
#7 ·
well i did my pedal box yesterday, took me about 10 hours including fitting a brace to the clutch 'axle' replacing the cable and with a lot of interruptions (gf rang 3 times, mate rang twice, people came over, dad coming out offering 'suggestions')....

bugger me there is a lot of wiring under there, i have an aftermarket alarm and there is crap everywhere, i had to cut and re-solder a lot of alarm wires that went though and around the pedal box....and the stereo took a little extra time too.

i took heaps of photos but dad has the digital camera at the moment so i cant post them, i will when i can, to show the brace that i fitted- hopefully it will support the clutch and i wont have to do another box.

funny thing, the pedal box that i got out of the car was the second one the car has had, it was fitted in SA about 2 years after the car was built, it still had the freight tag stuck to it!

now, suprisingly, i have LESS (read: none) dash rattles than before, and the clutch feels great - im still going hydraulic though, they ARE lighter than cable, and more reliable.

it all worked great except last night on the way to my gfs at about 1200 i lost the instrument lights...dont know wtf happened there, they just went out and no fuses are blown....??????

P.S. (all genuine ford parts) cable was about $50, pedal box about $150, clip between cable and pedal $1, labour free cause i did it (yay. not.) and the experience? priceless...

also, to all those who choose to convert auto to manual of their own accord? YOU GUYS ARE BLOODY BRAVE!!!!!! especially if you are not mechanics and do it yourselves!!!!!
 
#12 ·
well the firewall support wasnt a very elegant solution, it was done kinda as soon as i noticed what was happening.

we had a 'stirrup' lying around at home, you know those galvanised steel things that you set in concrete and then sit a wood pole in when you make a varandah or patio or something? kinda hadr to explain, but they are like 5mm galvanised steel, so i cut off one side so i had a plate about 10cm by 10 cm, that already had holes in two diagonal corners. i then drilled and 'bored out' a hole big enough that the cable and 'pipe' from the firewall would fit through. this i placed on the inside of the firewall, then got two reinforcing straps (about 5cm by 3cm by 3mm) and drilled a hole in the middle of them. these i put on the outside of the firewall and bolted it all togather, with huge 16mm bolts.

i dont think thats a very good explanation but its the best i can do.

here is one of the pics i took, it shows the reinforcing plate in the background slightly obscured by the sound deadening, and a trial fitted brace which i made. the brace runs from the plate in the firewall to the end of the clutch pivot, i drilled a hole in the 'axle' of the clutch pivot point and tapped it to suit a 14mm bolt, as you can see. hopefully this will brace the pedal enough to stop it breaking again.

WBT56 hydraulic systems are always smoother/lighter than their cable equivalent, and nearly always more reliable, because there is no cable drag etc, and the only things that wear out are usually the bores in the master and slave cylinders, and that only happens after many many years - thats why car braking systems are all hydraulic and not mechanical - a hydraulic clutch system is exactly the same as a braking system, except the comparative volumes/bores of the master and slave cylinders are different.
 

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#13 ·
Rollin said:

WBT56 hydraulic systems are always smoother/lighter than their cable equivalent, and nearly always more reliable, because there is no cable drag etc, and the only things that wear out are usually the bores in the master and slave cylinders, and that only happens after many many years - thats why car braking systems are all hydraulic and not mechanical - a hydraulic clutch system is exactly the same as a braking system, except the comparative volumes/bores of the master and slave cylinders are different.
Try not to confuse the left hand and middle pedals. Brake systems are hydraulic because it would be very difficult to supply an external power source (booster) to a mechanical system. It would also be almost impossible to keep a system with a mechanical link to each wheel adjusted. I asked for an example of a cable system that was better. Try the V8 falcon system. You can build a clutch that will hold 600-700fwhp and it will still be smoother and softer than a 6cyl cable or XA-XE V8 hydraulic system. Drag is irrelevant as hydraulic systems have drag in both cylinders. The fact remains that properly designed cable systems are as smooth and as soft as anything else, easily as reliable and far cheaper.
 
#14 ·
WBT56 said:
Try not to confuse the left hand and middle pedals. Brake systems are hydraulic because it would be very difficult to supply an external power source (booster) to a mechanical system. It would also be almost impossible to keep a system with a mechanical link to each wheel adjusted. I asked for an example of a cable system that was better. Try the V8 falcon system. You can build a clutch that will hold 600-700fwhp and it will still be smoother and softer than a 6cyl cable or XA-XE V8 hydraulic system. Drag is irrelevant as hydraulic systems have drag in both cylinders. The fact remains that properly designed cable systems are as smooth and as soft as anything else, easily as reliable and far cheaper.
Check mate!
 
#15 ·
Drag is irrelevant as hydraulic systems have drag in both cylinders. The fact remains that properly designed cable systems are as smooth and as soft as anything else, easily as reliable and far cheaper.
er, how can you say that a cable system is as reliable as a hydraulic system when the point of the entire thread is to tell you all about how many dramas i am having with my system???

do a search on FF with the word 'clutch' in it and check the threads, there are pages and pages of people on here that have had the exact same problems as i have. now go to, say, LS1 forums and do the same search - i just did, there is not one thread i can find on there that has anything to do with clutch pedal problems.

consider how much power and torque most of the LS1 boys are dealing with and how many of them would have aftermarket clutches, and still no problems. this is one area, sadly, where holden is ahead of ford, holden have had hydraulic since they started using the getrag gearbox on the V6, and we NEVER have a problem wth them (i am a mechanic at a major holden dealership)

and...the drag on a master and slave cylinder setup in a hydraulic system is SFA, and especially so when compared to 2 or so meters of cable bent round to go from the firewall, bent through 180 degrees backwards then through 90 degrees to the passenger side, under the engine then through a further 90 degrees to line up with the release fork.

Brake systems are hydraulic because it would be very difficult to supply an external power source (booster) to a mechanical system.
the Vacuume booster actually has nothing at all to do with the hydraulics of a braking system, the booster assistance is actually applied to the rod that goes from the brake pedal to the back of the master cylinder, so if you were to have a completely mechanical braking system you could still easily have the booster, you wouldnt even have to change the design, just unbolt the hydraulic master cylinder off the front and bolt on a lever or cable setup or whatever - if you wanted a circa 1912 braking system on your vehicle.

take the V8 falcon system. You can build a clutch that will hold 600-700fwhp and it will still be smoother and softer than a 6cyl cable or XA-XE V8 hydraulic system.
the 'weight' of a clutch pedal has as much to do with the pressure plate pressure as it does the rest of the system - you could, in theory, make a system with a lighter pedal than an excel and still cope with more then 1000Nm, but the material you would need to make the clutch plate out of would have to be something special, and the diameter of the plate would be massive, so your comparison between the above model is not valid.
 
#17 ·
Rollin, I think you'll find alot of the hardcore LS1 guys in the US convert their T56 from hydraulic to cable, its so common there are a few kits out there to do it.


As for re-enforcment plates for the firewall, I know one of the dealers here in Canberra actually sell these to suit EA-ED Falcons...
 
#18 ·
My Box colapsed on my EA, the cluch cable broke through the fire wall, it cost $750 to have a new cluch cable bux and to have my fire wall reinforced, (a couple of plates welded to each side) now i have a smoother cluch than my fathers volvo!! But it is still quite heavy compaired to my girlfriends Mira!!!!
This was done in wollogong, but i know a guy in Dubbo who says he only charges $250 for the work!!!!
 
#20 ·
Rollin, being a minor expert on this having had same problem on XF and EA, it's not clear whether you've just got the clutch cable butted up to the brace plate on the firewall side. Should have an angled tube to direct the cable down at the right angle. The part is some stupid price new or about $1 from pick a part - up to about XD/XE. Little tube welded onto small plate. It'll flex around the base and go eventually, but it's a sacrificial part that lasts for years and it's easier to fix than holes in firewalls or brace plates.
 
#21 ·
er, how can you say that a cable system is as reliable as a hydraulic system when the point of the entire thread is to tell you all about how many dramas i am having with my system???

And did you not blame this on the previous owner who fitted a "heavy duty" pressure plate? Two things make the mechanism fail as you have discussed. 1) A poor quality pressure plate with excessive lever effort. 2) Over adjustment by inexperienced mechanics. True, the firewall will fatigue over time, but you should get 300,000km out of it.

do a search on FF with the word 'clutch' in it and check the threads, there are pages and pages of people on here that have had the exact same problems as i have. now go to, say, LS1 forums and do the same search - i just did, there is not one thread i can find on there that has anything to do with clutch pedal problems.

Glad to see you specify PEDAL problems here, as a GM spannerboy tell us how many VU ute clutches you have seen replaced under warranty. The 12" self adjusting pressure plate is a piss poor piece of design from go to whoa.

consider how much power and torque most of the LS1 boys are dealing with and how many of them would have aftermarket clutches, and still no problems. this is one area, sadly, where holden is ahead of ford, holden have had hydraulic since they started using the getrag gearbox on the V6, and we NEVER have a problem wth them (i am a mechanic at a major holden dealership)

Here you are comparing a fatigue failure on a 10+ year old car with a system that's been in use for 6 years.(by the way, do getrag owners buck when you tell them they have a non-rebuildable pressure plate/clutch/flywheel assy and when it wears out they have to pay $1500 to replace the lot?)

and...the drag on a master and slave cylinder setup in a hydraulic system is SFA, and especially so when compared to 2 or so meters of cable bent round to go from the firewall, bent through 180 degrees backwards then through 90 degrees to the passenger side, under the engine then through a further 90 degrees to line up with the release fork.

Have you tried returning by hand a hydraulic system? Drag is an irrecoverable dead loss in a hydraulic system, as it is in any system. Do not confuse drag with pedal effort/resistance. They are different. On what do you base this incredible technical unit of measure, SFA?


the Vacuume booster actually has nothing at all to do with the hydraulics of a braking system, the booster assistance is actually applied to the rod that goes from the brake pedal to the back of the master cylinder, so if you were to have a completely mechanical braking system you could still easily have the booster, you wouldnt even have to change the design, just unbolt the hydraulic master cylinder off the front and bolt on a lever or cable setup or whatever - if you wanted a circa 1912 braking system on your vehicle.

Touche', but what of the mechanical link problem?

the 'weight' of a clutch pedal has as much to do with the pressure plate pressure as it does the rest of the system - you could, in theory, make a system with a lighter pedal than an excel and still cope with more then 1000Nm, but the material you would need to make the clutch plate out of would have to be something special, and the diameter of the plate would be massive, so your comparison between the above model is not valid.

And we are back to the beginning. You blamed your componant failure on the "heavy" pressure plate, and I have maintained all along that PP clamp effort is almost unrelated to lever effort. Any PP with a markedly larger release effort (than factory) is going to overload and eventually cause failure in related componants. If your car was hydraulic and kept the same crap PP you would still, over time, cause similar componant failures. At the end of the day, you have gone outside the design parameters of the componants in question, and they have failed.
Finally, don't say that my "example" was not valid. My "example" used std friction material linings, std flywheel, was std diameter and was lighter than a falcon 6 pedal.
It drove beautifully. It was not an airy fairy example as used by some others. Lastly, how long has your gf had an Excel?
 
#22 ·
And did you not blame this on the previous owner who fitted a "heavy duty" pressure plate? Two things make the mechanism fail as you have discussed. 1) A poor quality pressure plate with excessive lever effort. 2) Over adjustment by inexperienced mechanics. True, the firewall will fatigue over time, but you should get 300,000km out of it.
i used to have a EB, was bog stock except for suspension, it killed the pedal box before 130,000k as well, and i think the firewall was on the way out as well, but i killed the car before i could replace it. as i say, refer to all the other people here who have had problems with stock clutches.

Glad to see you specify PEDAL problems here, as a GM spannerboy tell us how many VU ute clutches you have seen replaced under warranty. The 12" self adjusting pressure plate is a piss poor piece of design from go to whoa.
we have never replaced a clutch under warranty, and we put about 100 cars a day through my dealership, we have only done a few for slippage, but that is from customers racing their cars and general abuse, there have been no failures of any clutch components apart from the actual friction plate, which dies from normal wear.

Here you are comparing a fatigue failure on a 10+ year old car with a system that's been in use for 6 years.(by the way, do getrag owners buck when you tell them they have a non-rebuildable pressure plate/clutch/flywheel assy and when it wears out they have to pay $1500 to replace the lot?)
yes i am comparing new and old cars, but as i said in a previous post, my pedal box had already been replaced once before, about 2 years after the car was built, and at that time it had a stocko clutch. and yes, they do buck when you tell them how much $$$ it will cost them, but do i care? no. they want a commo they live with it, its not a design fault for once, its to reduce driveline backlash and snatching.

Have you tried returning by hand a hydraulic system? Drag is an irrecoverable dead loss in a hydraulic system, as it is in any system. Do not confuse drag with pedal effort/resistance. They are different. On what do you base this incredible technical unit of measure, SFA?
mate every time i replace a set of pads. the reason it is so hard is because by hand you have no mechanical advantage, by a lever (or pedal) you do, and also the diameter of the lines plays a part too - bigger lines = higher flow and less resistance. the more drag you have the more resistance you have, and hence, the more pedal effort you require. so they are not the same, but they are interrelated.

oh, and SFA = Sweet **** All, which obviously means nearly nothing, measurered digitally (fingers on each hand)

Touche', but what of the mechanical link problem?
i dont understand what you mean?

And we are back to the beginning. You blamed your componant failure on the "heavy" pressure plate, and I have maintained all along that PP clamp effort is almost unrelated to lever effort. Any PP with a markedly larger release effort (than factory) is going to overload and eventually cause failure in related componants. If your car was hydraulic and kept the same crap PP you would still, over time, cause similar componant failures. At the end of the day, you have gone outside the design parameters of the componants in question, and they have failed.
are you kidding? pressure plate effort has a lot to do with pedal effort, you have to trade distance advantage for mechaincal advantage, you cant get something for free.

if i convert to hydraulic it will be properly, and it will not fail due to the fact that i will design it the way for should have done in the first place.

P.S. my gf doesnt have an excel, i picked a car at random that i knew had a light clutch - i should have used astra as an example, sometimes i get into an astra and think the clutch is broken because the pedal is that light, its about the same effort as my accelerator, not that my accelerator is heavy.
 
#23 ·
This is getting messy to read, I haven't got the quote in a quote in a quote thing down pat yet.Sorry.
I used to have a EB, was bog stock except for suspension, it killed the pedal box before 130,000k as well, and i think the firewall was on the way out as well, but i killed the car before i could replace it. as i say, refer to all the other people here who have had problems with stock clutches.
I also said adjustment was a cause of this problem, and that you SHOULD get 300,000km out of it. Not a guarantee.



we have never replaced a clutch under warranty, and we put about 100 cars a day through my dealership, we have only done a few for slippage, but that is from customers racing their cars and general abuse, there have been no failures of any clutch components apart from the actual friction plate, which dies from normal wear.
The clutch plate dies from slipping because the PP won't clamp to it quickly enough. Are you saying you have not honoured warranty on these vehicles?



yes i am comparing new and old cars, but as i said in a previous post, my pedal box had already been replaced once before, about 2 years after the car was built, and at that time it had a stocko clutch. and yes, they do buck when you tell them how much $$$ it will cost them, but do i care? no. they want a commo they live with it, its not a design fault for once, its to reduce driveline backlash and snatching.
a)Don't defend a system with a major fault(loss of drive), as a means to attack a system with a minor long term fault(a few cracks). Also, you will find the drive assy in a V6 has nothing to do with backlash and snatch. It is to reduce Noise, Vibration and Harshness (ever seen a new commodore advertised as having improved NVH figures?) generated in the gearbox by the V6 engine. (and before you comment, drive two identical commodores with the same drivetrain but a V6 and a V8. You will see what I mean)


mate every time i replace a set of pads. the reason it is so hard is because by hand you have no mechanical advantage, by a lever (or pedal) you do, and also the diameter of the lines plays a part too - bigger lines = higher flow and less resistance. the more drag you have the more resistance you have, and hence, the more pedal effort you require. so they are not the same, but they are interrelated.
You will find that brake and clutch lines are the same internal diameter. The drag figure, as a unit, remains unchanged. A cable clutch system without the PP and the return springs will require less effort to travel end to end than a hydraulic system without the PP and return springs. Also, in use on the road the brakes don't have drag as the piston seal doesn't actively travel, it rocks. It only travels slightly as they self adjust. (of couse the master still does)
oh, and SFA = Sweet **** All, which obviously means nearly nothing, measurered digitally (fingers on each hand)



i dont understand what you mean?
I was in error and concede this point.(only the first part)


are you kidding? pressure plate effort has a lot to do with pedal effort, you have to trade distance advantage for mechaincal advantage, you cant get something for free.

I said PP clamp was ALMOST unrelated to lever effort. You are talking "old school" clutch modification. I have gone to great pains to say a PROPERLY DESIGNED PP can have a large increase in clamp effort without anywhere near a proportional increase in pedal effort.(read 75% more clamp with no noticeable increase in pedal effort)
if i convert to hydraulic it will be properly, and it will not fail due to the fact that i will design it the way for should have done in the first place.

P.S. my gf doesnt have an excel, i picked a car at random that i knew had a light clutch - i should have used astra as an example, sometimes i get into an astra and think the clutch is broken because the pedal is that light, its about the same effort as my accelerator, not that my accelerator is heavy.
Don't both these cars have a cable clutch?
 
#24 ·
to quote write "(quote)" -cut and paste here - and then write '(/quote)' but use square brackets instead of normal ones "[" "]"

you cant adjust a clutch in such a way that it breaks things, it dont work like that.

The clutch plate dies from slipping because the PP won't clamp to it quickly enough. Are you saying you have not honoured warranty on these vehicles?
normal wear and tear of the friction plate from driving normally, like leaving the lights etc, is not warranty. with 220kW or more behind it and thrashing an engine like most customers do it just happend that they wear out faster than less powerful vehicles. slipping the clutch on launch on purpose doesnt help either.

that is to be expected.

Also, you will find the drive assy in a V6 has nothing to do with backlash and snatch. It is to reduce Noise, Vibration and Harshness (ever seen a new commodore advertised as having improved NVH figures?) generated in the gearbox by the V6 engine. (and before you comment, drive two identical commodores with the same drivetrain but a V6 and a V8. You will see what I mean)
NVH and backlash/snatch is the same thing, they have a two peice flywheel and a solid friction plate instead of a one peice flywheel and a sprung friction plate, this is to make it easier to drive the vehicle smoothly. mate i drive commodores 5 days a week, i know exactly how they drive.

I said PP clamp was ALMOST unrelated to lever effort. You are talking "old school" clutch modification. I have gone to great pains to say a PROPERLY DESIGNED PP can have a large increase in clamp effort without anywhere near a proportional increase in pedal effort.(read 75% more clamp with no noticeable increase in pedal effort)
yes, of couse a well designed PP can have more clamp load and less pedal effort (over centre springs, like on trucks, are an example of this) but my argument has been that for a given vehicle with a given pressure plate a hydraulic system is better (more reliable, smoother etc) than a cable setup on the same vehicle, i have just been using other vehicles as examples to prove my point.

P.S. my gf doesnt have an excel, i picked a car at random that i knew had a light clutch - i should have used astra as an example, sometimes i get into an astra and think the clutch is broken because the pedal is that light, its about the same effort as my accelerator, not that my accelerator is heavy.
Don't both these cars have a cable clutch?
no they have a hydraulic clutch, same as pretty much every single new car sold in australia, europe and america today.

note Ford finally got its shit togather and now the BA has a hydraulic clutch on all manual models? HOORAY!!!!!!
 
#26 ·
are you kidding? pressure plate effort has a lot to do with pedal effort, you have to trade distance advantage for mechaincal advantage, you cant get something for free.
yes, of couse a well designed PP can have more clamp load and less pedal effort (over centre springs, like on trucks, are an example of this) but my argument has been that for a given vehicle with a given pressure plate a hydraulic system is better (more reliable, smoother etc) than a cable setup on the same vehicle, i have just been using other vehicles as examples to prove my point.
Did some research between the two comments above did we? Anyway, this argument is going nowhere, so I will attempt to finish with three points. A) I have driven two cars with identical engine, flywheel, clutch plate, pressure plate, gearbox, etc. The only difference between them is the clutch system. One cable, one hydraulic. Both factory systems, no tricks. You could not feel a difference between the two. One was not smoother or lighter than the other, and both have been in service for a number of years, and therefore no more reliable. B) the reason that adjustment can wreck your system is that when you over-adjust the clutch the extra travel bends the diaphragm(the fingers) and it fails. This also overloads the pedal box, firewall, etc. The diaphragm used to fail in ford twin plates for the same reason. C) If you really still believe you are better off with a hydraulic clutch, I have access to all the parts to convert your car and T5 to hydraulic system. PM me.
 
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