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Old 11-21-2002, 15:47   #1 (permalink)
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Manual Vs Auto

Been havin an argument with my younger, more naive brother of mine. He has the train of thought that auto's are better than manual's for acceleration and speed. He has been told by a mate that an auto with a hi end stall converter would beat a manual. We are talking about two falcons draggin each other of one with auto and one with manual. I keep telling him that the manual is better because it relates more power from the engine to the transmission, and the fact that the auto selects for you when to change. Can anyone give me a more technical definition of why the manual is better. He has never driven the manual falcon unlike myself, and I am sure that would convince him. Or otherwise you boys driving a manual pulls up to an Metallic sky blue EB falcon with P's and FTR 16" rims, lowered and with a sports exhaust, feel free to destroy him and his beloved auto. I am not encouraging anyone to break the law BTW.
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Old 11-21-2002, 15:54   #2 (permalink)
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That car sounds familiar.
I think i where you live! Have you ever noticed a yellow XF parked across from your driveway? Or a polynesian green ED how about a mini? They are all mine.
Sorry for the topic change
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Old 11-21-2002, 16:28   #3 (permalink)
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I agree with your, so called naive, younger brother.

I have over 2 decades of driving experience and a Mechanical Engineering degree to support this view.

Have you ever been to the Drags?
Where acceleration & speed are what matter most.
Whats the gearbox of choice for all the serious runners?

Here's a clue - four letters, starts with AU and ends with TO.

WHY?

The high stall allows the engine to rev up closer to it's max-power revs before launch - just like where you drop the clutch in your manual.

Auto's better effective gear ratios because of the multiplier effect of the torque convertor (do not just compare stated gear ratios - that's not how autos work).

The engine can stay in its peak power-torque rev range while the convertor does it thing between gear changes - the manual has no drive to the rear wheels when ever the clutch is depressed to change gears. This is usually when an auto will pull (further) ahead.

I don't expect many of you to believe me and no, a standard auto driven be selecting D and then letting it do everything probably won't beat a manual. However, spool up the convertor before launch (foot firmly on brake) then change the auto manually and I think you manual drivers would be surprised at how well they go.
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Old 11-21-2002, 16:36   #4 (permalink)
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If you spool up the converter before launch, do you do that in gear (1) ?

I've noticed the acceleration on my car is a lot better over about 2500 revs, you feel it accelerate harder. It'd be nice to get there quicker!
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Old 11-21-2002, 16:41   #5 (permalink)
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No offense meant to the auto enthusiasts out there, but my brothers opinion is naive due to his lack of true understanding and the fact that he is repeating what a friend told him. Thanks for the reply Raptor but there are a few things I would love to ask.
1. Manual's generally have more gears, hence a higher ratio for 1st gear giving more launch, that why those rice cars are so quick.
2. Not sure, but the torque converter would only be a fraction of a second, while they might have that extra second, I believe that an experienced manual driver doesn't lose that much ground.
3. Its nice to put your foot on the brake and accelerator to give more launch with a stall converter, but is it practical or even safe for car not on the darg strip?
4. I acknowledge that the auto's change faster than the manual, but isn't power being diverted from the engine and drive train into the torque converter, losing some of the power. Also isn't the auto heavier.
Dan, do you live in Ringwood?
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Old 11-21-2002, 17:00   #6 (permalink)
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No i am in bayswater but a mate lives in ringwood his mum drives a white impreza wagon. its in the driveway alot. There is a red MR2 on that street as well at the end of the court.
There is always a light blue EB with tickford rims and it lowered with a p plate. Sounds like the car you mentioned. My mate lives in the house across the road. Number 2.

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Old 11-21-2002, 18:02   #7 (permalink)
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The answer here is very simple. In lower powered cars, including EA-EL Falcons, manual will be faster due to more power being transferred to the wheels, more gears so that gearing can be shorter, and so on.

For drag cars, a 2 or 3 speed auto is the only way to go.
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Old 11-21-2002, 18:48   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by copscatchme
No offense meant to the auto enthusiasts out there....
None taken.

Quote:
1. Manual's generally have more gears, hence a higher ratio for 1st gear giving more launch, that why those rice cars are so quick.
Manuals need a higher ratio because their drive is direct through the clutch. With a torque converter the "slip" effectively makes an Auto's ratio MUCH lower (depending on convertor design and load)

Quote:
2. Not sure, but the torque converter would only be a fraction of a second, while they might have that extra second, I believe that an experienced manual driver doesn't lose that much ground.
You mean during gear changes. Yes it is only small (fraction of a second) but that can equate to a bit of distance on the road at speed. Yes the driver & car makes a difference. V8 supercars for example are designed to permit flat changes - no clutch.

Quote:
3. Its nice to put your foot on the brake and accelerator to give more launch with a stall converter, but is it practical or even safe for car not on the darg strip?
Your not condoning racing anywhere but an a purpose built facility I hope. I wouldn't recommend spooling up the convertor every time you move off from the lights any more than I would recommend dropping the clutch each time. Both will take there toll on equipment life but every so often won't do too much harm.

Quote:
4. I acknowledge that the auto's change faster than the manual, but isn't power being diverted from the engine and drive train into the torque converter, losing some of the power. Also isn't the auto heavier.
Yes. Everything about cars is a compromise.
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Old 11-21-2002, 21:36   #9 (permalink)
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I almost got beaten by a VP Executive the other day.. He was using his 5 speed manual gearbox, and i was using my XR6 4 speed AUTO tranny.. I used 'DRIVE' instead of the gears, and i found that his car died off at the change from 1st to 2nd, while mine didn't lose too many revs.. After that first gear change, i crept ahead.. Next time, i'll spool it up (foot on the brake to start with) and use 1st, 2nd etc .. Then we'll see how much i win by


EDIT: My car is a stock EF with a 3 inch exhaust all the way, while his was a worked 3.8 v6 with extractors, bored out cylinders, 3 inch exhaust system and huge cold air induction.. That makes me feel abit better about almost losing :(
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Old 11-22-2002, 03:14   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah as Raptor said, it all depends on the auto, I mean with my car it is a 3 speed auto and I notice when im in drags that I keep accelerating when mates have manual cars and need to change gears, it goes back to the constant power thing, for the fraction the manual is out the automatic still has the power at the wheels.

really, neither is better than the other, they both suit a different purpose, they both have advantages and disadvantages, etc... Its almost uncomparable because if you had a nicely tricked up C4 in an E-series falcon you'd more than likely blow away the 5-speeders, it all comes down to preference and as i said, they both suit a purpose
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