Been havin an argument with my younger, more naive brother of mine. He has the train of thought that auto's are better than manual's for acceleration and speed. He has been told by a mate that an auto with a hi end stall converter would beat a manual. We are talking about two falcons draggin each other of one with auto and one with manual. I keep telling him that the manual is better because it relates more power from the engine to the transmission, and the fact that the auto selects for you when to change. Can anyone give me a more technical definition of why the manual is better. He has never driven the manual falcon unlike myself, and I am sure that would convince him. Or otherwise you boys driving a manual pulls up to an Metallic sky blue EB falcon with P's and FTR 16" rims, lowered and with a sports exhaust, feel free to destroy him and his beloved auto. I am not encouraging anyone to break the law BTW.
That car sounds familiar.
I think i where you live! Have you ever noticed a yellow XF parked across from your driveway? Or a polynesian green ED how about a mini? They are all mine.
Sorry for the topic change
Dan
I agree with your, so called naive, younger brother.
I have over 2 decades of driving experience and a Mechanical Engineering degree to support this view.
Have you ever been to the Drags?
Where acceleration & speed are what matter most.
Whats the gearbox of choice for all the serious runners?
Here's a clue - four letters, starts with AU and ends with TO.
WHY?
The high stall allows the engine to rev up closer to it's max-power revs before launch - just like where you drop the clutch in your manual.
Auto's better effective gear ratios because of the multiplier effect of the torque convertor (do not just compare stated gear ratios - that's not how autos work).
The engine can stay in its peak power-torque rev range while the convertor does it thing between gear changes - the manual has no drive to the rear wheels when ever the clutch is depressed to change gears. This is usually when an auto will pull (further) ahead.
I don't expect many of you to believe me and no, a standard auto driven be selecting D and then letting it do everything probably won't beat a manual. However, spool up the convertor before launch (foot firmly on brake) then change the auto manually and I think you manual drivers would be surprised at how well they go.
No offense meant to the auto enthusiasts out there, but my brothers opinion is naive due to his lack of true understanding and the fact that he is repeating what a friend told him. Thanks for the reply Raptor but there are a few things I would love to ask.
1. Manual's generally have more gears, hence a higher ratio for 1st gear giving more launch, that why those rice cars are so quick.
2. Not sure, but the torque converter would only be a fraction of a second, while they might have that extra second, I believe that an experienced manual driver doesn't lose that much ground.
3. Its nice to put your foot on the brake and accelerator to give more launch with a stall converter, but is it practical or even safe for car not on the darg strip?
4. I acknowledge that the auto's change faster than the manual, but isn't power being diverted from the engine and drive train into the torque converter, losing some of the power. Also isn't the auto heavier.
Dan, do you live in Ringwood?
No i am in bayswater but a mate lives in ringwood his mum drives a white impreza wagon. its in the driveway alot. There is a red MR2 on that street as well at the end of the court.
There is always a light blue EB with tickford rims and it lowered with a p plate. Sounds like the car you mentioned. My mate lives in the house across the road. Number 2.
The answer here is very simple. In lower powered cars, including EA-EL Falcons, manual will be faster due to more power being transferred to the wheels, more gears so that gearing can be shorter, and so on.
For drag cars, a 2 or 3 speed auto is the only way to go.
Manuals need a higher ratio because their drive is direct through the clutch. With a torque converter the "slip" effectively makes an Auto's ratio MUCH lower (depending on convertor design and load)
2. Not sure, but the torque converter would only be a fraction of a second, while they might have that extra second, I believe that an experienced manual driver doesn't lose that much ground.
You mean during gear changes. Yes it is only small (fraction of a second) but that can equate to a bit of distance on the road at speed. Yes the driver & car makes a difference. V8 supercars for example are designed to permit flat changes - no clutch.
3. Its nice to put your foot on the brake and accelerator to give more launch with a stall converter, but is it practical or even safe for car not on the darg strip?
Your not condoning racing anywhere but an a purpose built facility I hope. I wouldn't recommend spooling up the convertor every time you move off from the lights any more than I would recommend dropping the clutch each time. Both will take there toll on equipment life but every so often won't do too much harm.
4. I acknowledge that the auto's change faster than the manual, but isn't power being diverted from the engine and drive train into the torque converter, losing some of the power. Also isn't the auto heavier.
I almost got beaten by a VP Executive the other day.. He was using his 5 speed manual gearbox, and i was using my XR6 4 speed AUTO tranny.. I used 'DRIVE' instead of the gears, and i found that his car died off at the change from 1st to 2nd, while mine didn't lose too many revs.. After that first gear change, i crept ahead.. Next time, i'll spool it up (foot on the brake to start with) and use 1st, 2nd etc .. Then we'll see how much i win by
EDIT: My car is a stock EF with a 3 inch exhaust all the way, while his was a worked 3.8 v6 with extractors, bored out cylinders, 3 inch exhaust system and huge cold air induction.. That makes me feel abit better about almost losing
Yeah as Raptor said, it all depends on the auto, I mean with my car it is a 3 speed auto and I notice when im in drags that I keep accelerating when mates have manual cars and need to change gears, it goes back to the constant power thing, for the fraction the manual is out the automatic still has the power at the wheels.
really, neither is better than the other, they both suit a different purpose, they both have advantages and disadvantages, etc... Its almost uncomparable because if you had a nicely tricked up C4 in an E-series falcon you'd more than likely blow away the 5-speeders, it all comes down to preference and as i said, they both suit a purpose
On another note, I think the auto's are a stronger box then the manuals. In fact I think the Holden v8's in the 1970's used auto transmissions instead of manuals because of this fact.
Auto boxes that have had some work done on them and the person knows how to use them properly do perform better overall then a manual box. Many years of dragway use must tell you something!
Ok, so now that people are saying that an auto with some work done on them can beat 5speed manuals.. I'm not disputing this fact at all, considering I know shite all, but I have a few questions...
What mods can you do to an Auto box, what do they do, and how much does this cost? Why don't you people in here do up your auto boxes instead of changing all the housings, pedal boxes and all the rest when converting to manual trannys?
OK, here is my view... I find that the auto is a BITCH in 1st gear.
This is where id rather have a manual... once my car gets into 2nd... (or 3000+ in 1st) then u can shove yer manual... the auto really hammers... whats more u can get too a higher speed just in 1st gear (u would be changing into 2nd in a 5spder) with no need to clutch and change... 2nd gear in an auto and yer shifting again into 3rd gear on the manual. Thats 2 gear shifts in a manual and only 1 gear change in the auto. Whats more, there is no (if yer box is in proper workin order) need to decouple the engine power from the gearbox. I usually kick ass over most 5spd ea's (i know i kick my mates easily) with only the mods listed below. Sure they launch ahead in 1st but once im over that 1st gear, i push ahead and thats with a buggered S5. I also like the fact that if a commie is along side u and decides he wants to make something of it... u dont gotta give a shit about finding yer feet on the clutch, u just plant yer foot and she kicks down to 1st... and u blow em away. Give me a finely tuned auto and id have that anyday..
An auto with a good stall convertor and about $150 spent on valves will demolish a manual in the straight line.
If you got a 4sp Ford Auto and changed the valve in the box then fitted a 1800 rpm converter you can put a lot of cars to shame.
I had an EL auto and I hated it because it was an auto my cousins bf races drag cars and refered me to some of his mates.
I went from a nice stocker with a bit of poke to a drag way ledgend (no I'm sorry I never took it to a 1/4 test)
Changing the valve makes for far quicker changes making the box chirp through changes (very hard to do in a stock manual) and the converter made for brillient launches every time.
I drive a manual now and I'm happier with it but for a differant reason.
I don't drive cars in a line fast that's for Holden drivers ( gotta give them something)
I love manuals because of the control of the car you have through corners. For me there's nothing worse than a kick down in the wrong part of the corner.
A stall convertor is a part of the transmission that gives the car drive, basically it acts kind of like a clutch and the fly wheel spins against it when you are at low revs, so you dont stall when your stopped and have the car in drive, its like riding the clutch. To have your stall increased (the revs at which the transmission engages the engine basically) means that the engine will rev quickly and freely and get to the revs its set at (say 2400rpm for example) then it will grab and give the car drive, sorta like dropping the clutch. Its a reallly bad explanation i know. And the valves, well when they are enlarged and given more pressure the gear changes happen quicker and more precisely, hence giving less loss through the gear change.
Good explaination Mighty NA saved me writing it.
The advantage of a stall converter is that you rev the car to say 1800rpm (good for a stock car to maintain driveablily) then pull off the brake and the car will launch. Excellent for good consistant drags. The valve explaination was good so I'll leave it at that.
Most good performance mechanics should be able to help you out. I know some good ones in adelaide but that's about it.
im sorry but i reckon a manual is far better than an auto in any performance driving with the only exception being all out drag racing.
i agree with carazy as in cornering a manual is so much more fun to drive.
but i reckon the driver has a lot to do with a manual car being quick. my gear changes in my manual ea are quicker than any 4sp commo or falcon ive come a cross. and if your racing to the speed limit on the street the manual win everytime
Id doubt a manual would win everytime, but there ya go. a tricked up auto will cane any manual any day of a week in a straight line situation, where a manual is concerned it is ALOT more fun i admit and more practical for fast cornering and slowing down.
and a tricked up engine will beat a standard one....
if you are going to use a modified auto then why compare it to a standard manual box ?
replace the syncros with straght cuts and shift without the clutch. should be alot faster.
because that was the original question asked. And NO if you replace the syncros with straight cut gears it will make it an utter pig to drive. The fact is that if manuals were better for drags then the pro's would use them and if auto's were better for racing the pros would use them. A tricked auto doesn't cost bugger all next to doing up a manual and a stally will always give consistant launches.
BUT in stock cars with stock boxes and stock diffs then the manual will win.
I own an auto, and yes I would change it over to manual in a second if I had the money or the time. Car control and the "fun" factor is unbeatable with a manual car. But if want to drag you should stick with the auto, fast launches and with a small amount of work fast changes as well.
no you can put a high stall in anything, but obviously if you stick in something huge like a 3000rpm one than it will piss the computer off, but a little higher than standard (like 2000max) will be ok.
it comes down to this: the less power you have, the more important it is to not waste any - a manual mirage or excel will beat an auto mirage or excel, a stock manual I6 falcon will beat a stock I6 auto (if the driver is any good) but once you start changing things and going very fast, an auto is best - you cant miss a shift in an auto - and once you have enough power for the back of the car to start stepping out during gearchanges, its time for a well sorted auto.
having said that, i would never buy an automatic performance car, i love changing gears, nothing beats the feeling you get after REALLY late-braking into a corner and doing a perfect heel-toe downchange before turning in and going through the corner sideways.....its better than racing a commodore and winning!
i believe that it is the ratios and the diff that maked the diffrent,
i had a 3 spd auto with a 3.23 diff, it was good down low but reved 2 high after 100 and took a while to speed up at high revs, with the manual conversion, 1st gear is to short, but but after that it will out accelerate the auto, its all about ratios, in the auto the holdens tend to have a higher low end, hence take off quicker, but high end the ford was always better. so in some cases you cant compare the two
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Ford Forums
1.4M posts
115.4K members
Since 1999
Ford Forum is a community to discuss all things Ford. Check out our discussions on the Ford Escape, Mustang, Edge, F-150, Raptor, Explorer, Focus, Fusion, Fiesta and more!