Ford Forums banner

DYNOED AND STARTING TO SMILE???

4K views 26 replies 6 participants last post by  lukeyn039 
#1 ·
Well guys the moment you have been waiting for has finally arrived but me not happy for now more on that later.

Sorry for the long POST.

A couple of weeks ago I booked the old girl in for its dyno run and cam timing adjustment.I was nervious and excited. All this money and time spent on my Falcon S pac to make it quicker had finally payed off or had it??
I rang up the dyno mob and asked how she went." you should be impressed" was the reply.Shy of relief. "You picked up a heap of torque when the cam was retarded 2 degrees, but lost alot of top end around 4000rpm was when it tapered off so I retarded it 2 degrees from standard and picked up more torque all the way through the rev range and ran out at 4500rpm. So what did I get at the wheels was my reply. "110 kw really good for an EA you should be happy".WWWWHHHAAATTT was my reply. You mean to say that I bolted on a set of HM's and had 107kw or 144hp(on different dyno) and now carried out head work Crow 825 cam and cam gear and gained 3 ****ING KW's.You've got to be joking.It turns out that they have just purchased a new dyno and are still trying to work out how to work it properly.He told me not to use the dyno figure as an overall reading, he said "You asked for your cam to be dialed in and that is what I have done and acheived good results".Which was true.I noticed the power range was alot better. Then he said "If you want horsepower reading or kilowatt output of your engine pull the engine out and we will dyno it for you,there are to many variences on a chassis dyno to get a good figure i.e diff gears,tyre pressures etc.A chassis dyno is only a tuning tool and that is what I have used it for"."It might not look alot on paper but the power curve that your motor made is more important then how many kilowatts you have acheived almost a flat power curve which will mean it will pull at almost any rpm.You can have 300kw but it all might be from 5500-6000 rpm useless for the street and even drag racing."Far enough,but WHY????

His reply was this " A couple of weeks ago we had an EA like yours had everything done bar variable camgear,instead it had a set of 3.7:1 diff gears and 2 1/2 inch exhuast including extractors it spat out 130kw at the wheels" YA ****ING WHAT.His reply "Well one it was on an old program of the dyno which we were having trouble with and since then we have up-dated it to the current program which we ran for your car." Um ok was my reply.His reply was "This is the weird part both my boss and I have driven both cars after the dyno runs and your car was much quicker and you have 3.45:1 diff gears." Ok short of feeling better. "I think these late model dynos take too many variables into account and stuff up the end result, but your car is by no means slow its quite quick"."Your car has a better power curve then the 130kw EA. His next question was what size exhaust do you have from the cat back. 2 1/4 was my reply. "**** that off and put a 2 1/2 on it come back and see me then it should make around 120-125kw on our new program".

I was let down but still had hope.I went immediately to my head guy and asked for "WHY". He looked at the dyno sheet and said "Very nice power curve indeed,but shit thats not right(kw output), there must be something not allowing it to breath properly, everything is done properly though,it should be making power all the way to 5000rpm someting is strangling it ". Next question was what size is your exhaust? Same answer 2 1/4."Well get rid of that and go 2 1/2 but there is something else,let me look at your intake box". So I poped the hood and he had a squizz."Remove your air box lid and drive it and see if there is any improvement".

So the first thing I did was go home and rip of my air box lid and take it for a spin boy did that make a difference,Bloody noisy but the tacho needle swung really quickly and the car was more responsive everywhere.Next day straight down to the wreckers for an airbox lid,came home and cut the top straight off it so all it did was clamp the air filiter in place.Next point of call was to take it back to where I got it dynoed with just the extractors and see if one I gained any kw by removing the airbox lid and two see if the other dyno was out.

Picked up the car and shore enough I gained 6hp with airbox lid off (around 3kw) to my disappointment the other dyno was not wrong I had a 148hp which is 110kw.I asked the same question "WHY". This guys reply was "Firstly your diff gears have been changed since last dyno which can change rear wheel horsepower,but secondly I have never seen a EA falcon pick-up 6hp with the air box lid off they usually get 0.5-1 hp, So the motor wants to make horsepower everything is done right there is something stopping it". He had a look under the car at the exhaust and told me there's your problem.Jacked the ass up and he pointed out that the 2 1/4 pipe over the dog leg (axle)is only 2 inch at max because it is not mandrel bent."Piss that exhaust off and then come and see me." He had checked the air fuel ratio and it was 13.5:1 so its not straving for fuel.Too much back pressure is occuring because of the restrictions in your system and also the bigger overlap in the new cam is allowing burnt exhaust gases to return to the combustion and you cant re-use burnt air.

So it was off to the exhaust shop for a 2 1/2 inch system.Turned out my extractors had a 2 1/4 in entry into the cat and around 2 inchs out when it was made up to the flange to bolt to the standard size system.Resriction number one. It performed well for a standard car not flowing alot of air but not for mine not anymore.So it was modified with 2 1/2 entry into the cat and 2 1/2 out.A 2 1/2 inch mandrel bent system was then fitted with 2 resenators and 1 straight through muffler.On the way to the dyno run I noticed it straight away it had more pull in every gear and did it so easily.

Then the dyno.Ran it up and it went to 164 hp or 122kw which made me more happy, real happy.Then I confronted another problem it's running too Lean 14.2:1 at 4500 and 14.8:1 at 4800. ****. My dyno guy said it should be making power all the way to 5000rpm now it can breath better, instead of max a 4500 which was 164,then at 4800 it went to 142hp losing power.Me thought got rid of the restriction and increased air flow so thats why it's lean.So I asked him what he thought.I was also hoping that this is why its not making power to 5000 rpm. He said "Your motor is working too well, now the engine can breath its flowing a lot more air then normal,your fuel system does not know you have increased air speed and volume so it can't put enough fuel to match the air flowing in." " Its working really well as an air pump which is what an engine is, just that its not getting enough fuel to make use of the increased air flow." This is good and bad. Good because there is more power to be made by making it richer and explains why 500 rpm short of where max power should be, but bad if I don't as I could burn out valves or melt a piston.

I got a couple of ops:

1) Check my fuel flow,pressure and reg for correct operation,Will do.
2) Chip,Dear
3) Adjustable fuel pressure regulator,Cheapy
4) Programable ECU. XXEE

The cheapest would be the Regulator for starters.To see if it makes any difference but then I am running higher fuel pressure so more load on the fuel pump and hoses.So I'll check my fuel system over thoughly and then make a decision I'll keep you guys infromed.

Wish me luck.

From what I have experienced if you want your car to be quicker but don't want to spend alot of money,fit 3.45 diff gears,good set of extractors 2 1/4 system if you are going to leave it standard interms of camshaft and head but 2 1/2 if you intend on modifing it later.By bloting on a 2 1/2 system you will probably not gain as much as I have due to the fact that a standard motor is not flowing as much as a motor with head and cam mods.But it will help.

If you want to spend money and make it quicker then every mod you carry out compliments the other such as camshaft head,chip and intake. Up to you.
 
See less See more
G
#2 ·
Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

why do you want 300 kws..... ,and the EAs body would twist with the 500 odd ntm ov tourqe that would go with such an engine....no?

........do u just want a rocket EA falcon !!

or do u want to be able to say ''ive got 300 kw man !".......just a question ?.

GOOD LUCK anyway !!
 
#3 ·
Re: Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

I am not aiming for 300kw at all it was just a figure of speach,a car can have all the kilowatts in the world but its where the power begins and ends is where it is most important I have found, that was all.Like these horse power heroes cars custom made to produce horse power.Most of them have to have the ring revved out of them to go anywhere that is why most hypo autos have high stall convertors installed so max power and drive is produced when stall is reached to over some the so called "lag" or "doughy" response.
 
#4 ·
Re: Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

thats quite an impresive EA.
im not too sure about how the whole electrics are in the car but i wonder if its possible to trick the ECU into richening it up by playing with the ego sensor, using a resistor maybe ?
may cause it too run a bit rich down low though but would help at the top end.
(just a thought, dont know if it works)
 
#5 ·
Re: Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

I have thought of putting a potientiometer in line with either the coolant temp sensor or air temp sensor,if I adjust the HEGO sensor then the car will run constantly rich and flood. The HEGO sensor is what is used to tell the ECU what weather it is rich or lean it trims the fuel map.I still want to have lean cruise and the HEGO sensor will able me to run this.I think from memory if the HEGO is telling the computer its rich the ECU will back of injection pluses thus leaning it out in the end anyway.
 
#6 ·
Re: Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

hmm ok sorry if im confusing myself here.. i think that a lower voltage from the ego makes the ecu think its lean and will richen it (have i got that right? ) what if you did it so that it went by the throttle so the resistor only came in under wide open throttle (some sort of switching curcuit)? that would preserve cruise and richen it when you need it
 
#7 ·
Re: Hey luke 300 kws are u for real ???

Now you got me confused,0.9 is rich and 0.1 is lean so yeh your right but I just remembered the HEGO sensor is not used at wide open throttle anyway if it was then the vehicle would not make power just like mine at the moment the ECU would be trying to make it leaner and lean is not what makes power trust me.But your thinking along the right lines.I can't really cut out the HEGO at all as this is tells the computer how the motor is going in regards to fuel ratio,its not read at idle either so its used mostly between idle and WOT which is where I don;t want to chew the fuel.So me scratch my head a bit more too.
 
G
#10 ·
300Kw's!!!

First of all make sure the transmittion/diff can handle that power/ and or torque produced by the motor, also consider braking and traction.

My initial thoughts are don't dodge it by placeing resisters at random to 'trick' the computer, infact stay away from modifing the computer completely, unless you're an auto-electrician or electrical-engineer (that knows the system) i would stay far away from tampering with the fuel management.

If you want a race car, with race performance best of considering new computer, it will also enhance the power and torque, and (hopefully) improve the dyno graph even more!
Although the new computer doesn't come cheap it the safest bet in the long run, imagine the problems you could have in several years/months/weeks even days by 'tricking' the computer, worse if something does go wrong, an auto-elect. will have a fit trying to find/remove the resister and fix any destroyed components, and that might even include your motor, how knows, it might even cost you more in the long run.

Stick with what you know, ok.

EAofWAR
 
G
#11 ·
.

About your car running lean at 'high' rpm.

Check that your accelerator cable is actually opening the throttle all the way. Im betting that its only opening like 90% which would obviously mean that the computer isnt suppling a maximum fuel load.

If its possible get them to dyno it by accelerating the car with the throttle linkage on the throttle body, not exactly all that safe though.
 
#13 ·
Re: .

Well Luke, sounds like the EA is finally begining to get it's self sorted, good stuff man. I would have freaked out if I were told my engine were pumping out the same kW figure as before the rebuild, but you took it well, and got it sorted... LOL.. well done.

As for the fuel issue, don't forget about the XR series fuel pumps, they have an extra 50kPA of pressure to offer, so that might be a help.

The thing must be hauling some serious ass now.. It must be a joy giving all those commos an ass whipping... hahaha.. enjoy and good luck.
 
#14 ·
RE:Sticking throttle

Well at first I must explain something.Before I had the 2 1/2 inch exhaust system installed and cat modified my air/fuel ratio was around 13.5:1 which is not that great for making power but good enough for prevention of internal melt down.Once I had the 2 1/2 exhaust fitted my engine can now breath thus I gained quite a bit of horsepower.This does not mean that a standard EA with a 2 1/2 exhaust will gain as much as I did,due to the fact that my head is modified to flow better and more and my cam allows more air/fuel in and out. Back to the topic.

You are right in away a sticking throttle cable or throttle plate can heed performance but this might help explain why it is not a factor in my case.


When the throttle is flat to the floor a couple of things happen,one the throttle plate will never be perfectly flat if the accelerator pedal is used and even with the use of your hand the plate will reduce air flow and speed.Secondly 0 inchs of mercury is achieved (no vaccum) so the fuel pressure regulator is allowing spring pressure to push on the seat allowing an increase in fuel flow and thirdly the TPS is sending a voltage to the ECU (I think its 4.5 a volts) to say that we have WOT(wide open throttle) and give me all the fuel I need.So no matter how far open the throttle plate is the car will feed as much fuel as it can and in my case it can't cope with the demand.My car is starving for fuel at present not air.A sticking throttle cable or plate could cause a rich concern but vary rarely.

Once on the dyno we did try spraying "carby cleaner" down the throttle body to add more fuel to the mixture and I gained a couple of horsepower and the horsepower was alot for even too.

Hope this clears up a few????

CYA Lukey
 
#16 ·
Re: RE:Sticking throttle

I didn't get over sized valves fitted but they have had a valve angle change and a grind.My springs are standard apparently they were stronger then an XR6 to my surprise so I left them.
 
#17 ·
Fuel issue

Sorry for the late reply Bass but thanks for the encouragment Bass hope everything is going well in your neck of the woods,did you short the vaccum issue? Those burnouts are an inspiration to anyone who wants to build an EA to impress the hard Holden freaks.Back to the issue at hand.

I have priced a XR6 fuel pressure regulator for around the $150 mark but surpisingly the rising rate fuel pressure is around the same price but the catch is they tend to leak down after shut down so its a bit of a pain.I might save some money and toy with idea of installing a chip I'll see how I go but I will keep you in formed I will have to pull my finger out though.
 
#18 ·
Re: Fuel issue

Hey Luke,
Everything down my end is pretty good. I haven’t had a chance to touch the vacc. problem yet however thanks for the tips. I'll let ya know when I start toying with it. I have been side tracked by a few things, including getting my parents commo back in action. Oh, and I’ve started making a heat cover for my extractors, my dad insisted I hurry up and do it before my wires get fried, should be done by the end of the week (Gotta Listen to my old man :) ).

Well I guess the best way for performance would be a programmable ECU as you already know, but the big issue is always $$$ I guess, and from my experience with cars, unless you put a stop to it, money spending will never end, and i'm sure you are in the same boat.
Keep at it, I’m sure you will figure out how to get some more fluids into the 3.9 without the ECU.

How different are the V8 fuel supply setups to the 3.9??

Also, have you considered using an ECU from a EBII. The have a higher kW output from basically the same donk. ECU might have some advantages, but they probably use less fuel if anything. Cheap to convert I'm guessing, smart lock might be an issue.. Just a thought, I'm just typing what ever ideas come to my head.

I found the point you made about changing the angle of the valves quite interesting as I have never heard of that before. Did you actually have the seats modified, or just the surface of the valves.
I had a grind done to mine, but nothing in regards to angel's.

Oh, and I’m thinking of putting the EA on a dyno as I have found a big performance difference with different timing settings. It looses a shit load of power when set to the IGN mark, so it’s about 20deg BTDC now and is pulling ok. I reckon a dyno would be the best way to set the timing for max grunt. How much you reckon I should pay for this?

Anyhow, keep us up to date on how it all goes.
 
#19 ·
Re: Fuel issue

Thats good to see everything is a ok.Have you thought about using heat shield tape wrapped around your extractors??I've been toying with the idea because one Iam having the same problem as you in the fact that my power lead to the amp has a softer texture to it now since the install of extractors and my throttle cable is also starting to sage and heres another reason why.

We were canning the ring out of my mates EB down the coast and then all the sudden the there was now acceleration happening, just idle.We inspected under the bonnet to our surprise the throttle cable was bent 90 degrees to the rocker cover thus no throttle at all.We had to act quick before it cooled to bend it back into shape or else wweess ****ed.

I think a roll of this is about $50 -$70 which is not to bad.

With regards to the EB 2 ECU you are right they do have more guts but theres the Smartlock issue, there are possible ways around it but will be difficult.They mainly get most of there kw from 35cc and different camshaft but the map is slightly different in the ECU also helps. A wrecker quoted me $250 for ECU so nearly half way to chip decessions decessions.

Your car is running on gas hench the 20 BTDC.Whats it like on petrol? Mines on 12 BTDC at present and that is what most places remmended to be but I might bump it up to 15 degrees just to try.I have been to 2 dynos so far (not a good idea if you are casing power readings, you end up blaming the dyno bloke for loosing power but dynos vary up to 15kw so Iam trying to stick to one at present for power figures) They ranged in price from $25 for dyno use and $25 for half and hour labour to $70 for dyno use and $110 an hour.If you get tuning carried out instead of just a "run up" they usually reduce the dyno fee and charge you just the hourly rate.

Iam tring to remember what the valve angles were changed to. I know it had a 3 angle grind(but most valve grinds are 3 angle if a valve tool is used such as the "syncro seat cutter"not just the old valve with grinding paste) I'll find out from the head guy.You will be surprised in the air flow characteristics and sealing of the valve face just by changing the angles of the seats such as 45 degree valve face mating to a 46 or 44 degree seat, 66degree valve face to 65 degree all depends.Both the seats and the valves were modified not just the valve face.

Hoping you smile straight away instead of a prgressive smile like mine but its getting bigger.

Goodluck with the dyno and let us know.

CYA Lukey.
 
#21 ·
Re: Fuel issue

Luke

just wondering, how long does an average dyno run last?

could you do the dyno from a coldish start?

if so, you could compare the output of the car with and without the clutch fan engaged - or with it removed completely - and really see how much it gained or lost.

just read someones post on the thermos and it made me think.

cheers

Jason
 
#22 ·
Re: Fuel issue

a dyno run in its self takes less than 10-15sec.....but when i had mine run up on the rollers, i was there for 30min, changing things etc..........

Id be bloody happy with 122kw at the wheels.....thats as much as an EF with a crow stage 2 cam..........mine spat out 74kw on LPG, so id be bloody extatic if mine had 122kw at the wheels.......stock EF/ELs have arround 98kw.....yours (with the 3.45diff) should be a rocket.......

is it a 3/4/5 speed?.......if i was you id be taking it to Calder/Eastern Creek, to give it a 1/4mile drag....it should be pulling 15's easy.....

remember 122rwkw, is arround 175kw at the engine.....more than XR6 VCT..nice work
 
G
#23 ·
dyno's

Gday, I had my EA dynoed not long ago and it said ive got just under 130kw at the wheels, so Im guessing it should do the quater mile in about 15's, I can keep up with an au fairmont VCT and im a little bit slower than my mates skyline GTS r32 which is pretty good I think, its not running the best so I can keep up with it now, hehe. Has anyone tried taking the headlight out of the left hand side and putting a pod there? I did that for a few days and it made heaps of difference coz the air is just going right into the pod from outside.
I think Im getting the car bug again....hmmmm not up for spending lots of money again on it.
catchyaaaaaa
MrKotter.
 
#25 ·
Dyno with/out fan

Hey Jobolger

I agree with mrkotter,a dyno run or "power run" usually takes around 30min to 40mins included is setup and if your dyno guy knows what he is doing then he will set up the 4 or 5 gas anayliser to see what the car is doing with regards to running rich or lean and where power can be made. Iam glad my dyno guy carried out this as I would be none the wiser and could possibly distory my pride and enjoy.The best part is in my case I was happy with the power output but seems how she is running very lean then there is the potential for more grunt now all I have to do is save up and decide which way to go.

With regards to the removal of the fan,it shouldn't be working if the electric dyno fan is big enough to cool it down then the fan should not engage at all.It would be interesting to see what difference it did make though.I should do it when I get my next dyno done and let you know.

I would not do a cold start dyno,the engine runs better at operating temp and should be more powerful as well and its not a good idea to put a motor under extreme load when its cold, the bores don't like it that much and the oil is probably at the wrong viscosity.

Thanks Walkinshaw for your nice coments.I'd be happy with 74kw at the wheels out of a stocker.Try advancing the timing, Bass has gained quite a bit from doing this as have I but you should gain more running on LPG.

Its a 5 speed manual and yes it is quick enough for me at the moment, so far on my list VS V8 commodore ute,250 motor bike( nothing flash mind you) XE V8,VP commodore V6 worked,you are going to laugh V6 Camry 98 model manual but Iam trying to reduce this until she is running the correct air/fuel ratio.I will be taking it down the track.My mates GTS R33 skyline ( the one with single turbo ran a 14.1 with exhaust mods and increase in boost.That had 135kw at the wheels.So I will be happy with ahigh 14 or low 15.Another mate has a EF with bascially the same short of mods mine has and it has around 130kw at the wheels and on its first run its ran a14.7 pass not to bad for first time.

I have not tried taking out the headlight but I did cut the top off my airbox lid and gained 6hp or around 3-4kw.Mind you this is all good on the dyno but on the road she sucks hot air but it does rev a lot freer when its off.I am trying to design a cold air system were I don't cut any part of my chassis.What mods have you done to yours,have you had a chip installed because from what I have found out with my car running lean, 122kw is about as much as EA's engine management and fuel system will produce.EA saloon cars have about 130kw at the wheels and thats with a chip a running 10-11 :1 comp ratio.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top