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A few questions...

4K views 33 replies 8 participants last post by  LTDHO 
#1 ·
I got a few questions ..

OK.. I got a lovely 76mm MAF tonight. The sample tube in it is designed for 24lb injectors (I am still running 19lb). I wasnt sure if it would run right, but low and behold - the thing actually works.

The shocking bit - is it actually runs better!!.. The car still has a few issues starting, but doesnt stall at every traffic light.

OK.. I am going to get the 70mm TB soon (when funds permit), but I am curious about the injectors now.

Should I put on a adjastable fuel regulator? (19lb injectors can be pushed out to run 22lb).. or should the unichip be able to be reprogrammed to compensate?

I know at the moment my car will be running lean.. so I am taking it relatively easy (no drags for me for a while).
 
#2 ·
Nice pickup there Kelli.

I say just get the proper sample tube soon as possible and maybe get it retuned by the unichip people to smooth out any load problems. Adjustable regulator isn't worth the money but you should certainly look at upgrading the injectors when you get that intake changed.

How was Sam's car running with the stock MAF? I'm guessing it would have been pig rich with the stock ECU and those 24lb injectors, haha.
 
#3 ·
XR8chic said:
I got a few questions ..

OK.. I got a lovely 76mm MAF tonight. The sample tube in it is designed for 24lb injectors (I am still running 19lb). I wasnt sure if it would run right, but low and behold - the thing actually works.

The shocking bit - is it actually runs better!!.. The car still has a few issues starting, but doesnt stall at every traffic light.

OK.. I am going to get the 70mm TB soon (when funds permit), but I am curious about the injectors now.

Should I put on a adjastable fuel regulator? (19lb injectors can be pushed out to run 22lb).. or should the unichip be able to be reprogrammed to compensate?

I know at the moment my car will be running lean.. so I am taking it relatively easy (no drags for me for a while).
Way to go!! Early Birthday Pressie????? :)

:p
 
#6 ·
Bigger MAF

Just thought I'd mention.

I had the LTD on the Dyno today, trying, amongst other things a new (bigger) MAF.

It made an extra 2 kw at 5200.

That's it. Nothing else. It also ran at a dangerous 14.4 AFR.

now I could probably fix this problem with a re-calibrated chip, but how much more power should I expect?

As a matter of intrest the feul pressure in the lines after the reg is 45.
 
#7 ·
Isn't 14:7 stoichometric ??? German for perfect or ideal {bosch}
14:7 of air mass to support complete combustion
of 1 part fuel .. 14:7 to 1 so the higher the number the leaner it is.. A.P take note .. me too !!
 
#8 ·
XR8chic said:
I got a few questions ..

OK.. I got a lovely 76mm MAF tonight. The sample tube in it is designed for 24lb injectors (I am still running 19lb). I wasnt sure if it would run right, but low and behold - the thing actually works

OK.. I am going to get the 70mm TB soon (when funds permit), but I am curious about the injectors now.

Should I put on a adjastable fuel regulator? (19lb injectors can be pushed out to run 22lb).. or should the unichip be able to be reprogrammed to compensate?

I.M.H.O Not until you replace the inlet the std H.O won't move enough air to lean out "too" bad..When you see them side by side you can realy see the difference.There is heaps!!..

Drillout the whole in you'r butterfly alittle and I'll guarantee the idle come's good.. You are replacing it soon anyway.. hth Kelli..
 
#9 ·
I was told it should be abut 12.7?
I am running the GT40 manifolds and a bigger T/B!

Too be honest, I'm a little confused. Since I went bigger everything, naturally I went bigger MAF, which didn't do anything!

It's got me buggered. The onlt thing the bigger MAF did was make it run lean.
 
#10 ·
LTDHO said:
I was told it should be abut 12.7?
I am running the GT40 manifolds and a bigger T/B!

Too be honest, I'm a little confused. Since I went bigger everything, naturally I went bigger MAF, which didn't do anything!

It's got me buggered. The onlt thing the bigger MAF did was make it run lean.
12:7 is rich look at the thread above! I bet your eye's water when walking around back of car..

Try using the electrics from you'r old maf ??? What maf did you get??

Are you using long tube extractors? The hego sencers may not be getting hot enough to work..
 
G
#12 ·
LTDHO said:
I was told it should be abut 12.7?
I am running the GT40 manifolds and a bigger T/B!

Too be honest, I'm a little confused. Since I went bigger everything, naturally I went bigger MAF, which didn't do anything!

It's got me buggered. The onlt thing the bigger MAF did was make it run lean.
LTDHO,
If you've only changed your intake and throttle body a bigger MAF will not really help as your heads are still the remaining bottle neck. You really need to change the heads,cam and exhaust to realise the potential of your engine. What MAF have you used?

XR8Chic,
I'd buy the 24's(or get the correct sample tube for the 19's) now and then re-tune that unichip thing(if you must use one). I'd also buy a 65mm t-body instead of the 70. The reason is two fold;
1). Even is you go the whole hog ie;aftermarket heads,intake,cam,exhaust etc you will likely not see any difference in performance between the 65 and 70 except for maybe a slight reduction in throttle response and low end torque with the 70.
2) a Ford racing 65mm comes with a new TPS and a new ISC valve and costs less than say a BBK 70mm which only comes with a TPS.

Laminge,
The stock fuel rails are good to about 600hp and will handle more with mods. My cleveland at around 430hp uses 30's and stock fuel rails with no lean out problems whatsoever.

ebxr8240,
That 76mm MAF will be a C&L so it comes with no electronics(which is one of the reasons why a Pro-M is the better choice)..hence she'll already be using the stock electronics.
The HEGO's will still reach the right temp but may take a little longer to get there with long tubes. The HEGO's on my ute are way down there in my 4 into 1 headers and begin to switch nicely after about 50 secs. The pulse delay is longer(obviously) but I have changed the Exhaust Pulse delay map with the EEC-Tuner to compensate.
Note that with most of these aftermarket headers they put the HEGO the same distance from the head but only in two of the four pipes. This in itself can cause a rolling idle because the exhaust pulse delay has been effectively doubled in time.

Yes 14.7:1 is considered Stoich. LTDHO was refering to 14.4:1 being dangerous because at WOT it is dangerous. You want to maintain around 12.5:1 to be safe and gain maximum power. An adjustable reg will help you there LTDHO.

Pete.
 
#13 ·
Thanks Pete.
 
#14 ·
XR9UTE said:


XR8Chic,
I'd buy the 24's(or get the correct sample tube for the 19's) now and then re-tune that unichip thing(if you must use one). I'd also buy a 65mm t-body instead of the 70. The reason is two fold;
1). Even is you go the whole hog ie;aftermarket heads,intake,cam,exhaust etc you will likely not see any difference in performance between the 65 and 70 except for maybe a slight reduction in throttle response and low end torque with the 70.
2) a Ford racing 65mm comes with a new TPS and a new ISC valve and costs less than say a BBK 70mm which only comes with a TPS.

Pete.
Hi,

thanks for that.

I already have done the heads, cam, roller rockers, and exhaust (I need the unichip for these, as the stock eec cant handle at all)

I am also doing the manifold shortly, and after I get me a new gear box (the current one is dying cos it cant handle it) I am gonna go a blower!

With this in mind, do you still think I should get a 65mm TB, or should I go for the 70mm ?

:s3
 
G
#15 ·
XR8chic said:


Hi,

thanks for that.

I already have done the heads, cam, roller rockers, and exhaust (I need the unichip for these, as the stock eec cant handle at all)

I am also doing the manifold shortly, and after I get me a new gear box (the current one is dying cos it cant handle it) I am gonna go a blower!

With this in mind, do you still think I should get a 65mm TB, or should I go for the 70mm ?

:s3
No worries XR8chic,

Interesting how you say the stock EEC can't handle all this, because in fact it can. Load may be calculated incorrectly but it should still run quite well. Ive set up many Falcons(and other vehicles and engines running the 5.0 Falcon EEC) and they do run very well.

Anyway you all know my thoughts on piggy back devices and chips that aren't actually tuned for the particular car.

So, the throttle body. Where a blower is concerned there won't be a lot in it for the sake of 5mm. At the end of the day total airflow through the engine dictates ideal t-body size. Some questions: what heads have you got? what compression? what cam? what exhaust?

Of course you'll probably need injectors in the 30 to 42lb range straight up. Otherwise you'll be buying injectors twice.

Pete.
 
#16 ·
It's got me buggered!

I've done the cam, heads, exhaust, that is why I thought that the MAF was the next option. The MAF was off a 220 XR8, the sensor it's self needs to be swapped as the plugs are different. The T/B is also off a AU.
The MAF with the standard computer made no power (lost power) down low, but from 4000 and up it seemed to kick in. I then put the chip in (not calibrated for the bigger maf) and it was drivable from idle to 5500.
But to conpare the dyno run there would only be 2 or 3 kw's in it. I wasn't expecting tyre smoke, but 5 to 10 increase at the wheels. This what I was told would happen.
Can someone please confirm the correct AFR???
 
#17 ·
Pete

Its interesting to read what you say, and I have no doubt that the current ecu will run kelli car!

Why wouldnt one go for the unichip option, after the ability to alter fuel mapping is not a benfit re fuel consumption but is a must on saving the engine from a short life?

Would you agree if Kelli runs a blower, and with the larger injectors, the issue of fuel delivery is also of concern, the eb's fuel rail system I beleive wont handle, or carnt handle the required presure to avoid flat spots down low
 
#18 ·
LTDHO

No surprise the bigger MAF is causing a lean condition. With no change to the MAF values in the EEC the car is ingesting more kg of air for a particular voltage read from the MAF but doesn't know this. Therefore not enough fuel is added to compensate and bingo, it runs lean.

All you need to do is talk to your chip people and get them to put in the proper MAF values and you should definitely see a bigger power increase as the correct a/f ratio is maintained at WOT.
 
G
#19 ·
laminge said:
Pete

Its interesting to read what you say, and I have no doubt that the current ecu will run kelli car!

Why wouldnt one go for the unichip option, after the ability to alter fuel mapping is not a benfit re fuel consumption but is a must on saving the engine from a short life?

Would you agree if Kelli runs a blower, and with the larger injectors, the issue of fuel delivery is also of concern, the eb's fuel rail system I beleive wont handle, or carnt handle the required presure to avoid flat spots down low
laminge,

The reason I wouldn't use a unichip is that they are piggy back device and therefore a hit and miss affair. A piggy back device cannot alter fuel mapping where it should be(from within the EEC)altered and cannot take into account the adaptive learning strategy. Granted she already has one so she may as well use it.
In the end I am only talking about the best solution and that is an EEC-Tuner or a custom tuned chip.

As for the fuel rails, they are the same as U.S. 5.0 rails and I have many contacts who will attest to them coping up to 600hp. Obviously if you're approaching these figures you can cut the stock fittings(the biggest bottleneck) off the rails to give you piece of mind.

LTDHO Listen to Anakha!
BTW you cannot simply swap the hotwire from one MAF housing to another just because the connector is different.
The EEC has the MAF transfer function of the original MAF programed in. This (as Anakha was saying) is a voltage vs air mass curve that is characteristic of the original MAF. So if you make any change to the MAF diameter,sample tube diameter, or the hotwire itself you will throw the EEC a curve ball(pardon the pun) and it won't give you the right fueling(or load claculation).
For example if the stock transfer function had 54kg/hr of air mass for an output of 1.46volts and you changed the diameter of the MAF without changing anything else you would get greater mass of air flowing. Because the sample tube is still the same size the hotwire would only measure the same mass of air resulting in the same voltage being sent to the EEC when in fact much more air had passed.....hence a lean condition.

Pete.
 
#20 ·
LTDHO

I guess you are still using 19 Lp injectors?? Those 220's run 24's .
You have bigger maf and smaller inj. Thats why we asked what brand maf?? Aftermarket maf's are tuned or calibrated to your inj,ecu.Thats what "they" say.. & why I suggested trying std elecronics,to see if it helps ??

Any body tried brands "sold here" as in Granitelli,they are used on G.M products but I see on there web site they makem for Fords...
 
#21 ·
XR9UTE said:


The reason I wouldn't use a unichip is that they are piggy back device and therefore a hit and miss affair. A piggy back device cannot alter fuel mapping where it should be(from within the EEC)altered and cannot take into account the adaptive learning strategy.

Pete.
Pete... the unichip is not a piggy back chip.

the unichip is actually placed BEFORE the EEC, and alters values prior to reaching the EEC.

The fact that the tuning for the chip is real time on a dyno ensures that I get the best performance for my car.

Also - the stock EEC4 will not handle my mods. The fact that I went through 2 tanks of petrol in 300km's and stalled at EVERY set of lights is proof enough for me of this.
 
#22 ·
ebxr8240

Those Granatelli meters are I believe made by the Pro-M people. Some sort of licencing deal going on there from what I read. If you look on the Pro-M page (url is www.pro-flow.com) you'll see Granatelli listed as a dealer and pictures of the same products in some cases.

That said their MAFs are some of the better aftermarket items around and going by the retail prices on Granatelli's site the local price from VPW isn't too bad. $357US vs $599 AU.
 
G
#23 ·
XR8chic said:


Pete... the unichip is not a piggy back chip.

the unichip is actually placed BEFORE the EEC, and alters values prior to reaching the EEC.

The fact that the tuning for the chip is real time on a dyno ensures that I get the best performance for my car.

Also - the stock EEC4 will not handle my mods. The fact that I went through 2 tanks of petrol in 300km's and stalled at EVERY set of lights is proof enough for me of this.
Ok time for some definitions methinks;

I said piggyback device not chip. Anything that goes on the harness side of the EEC is a piggyback device EG: Crane Interceptor,PMS(same thing),unichip,JET modules and some early poxy Hypertech modules,Ford racing extender, or Ford racing EPEC.

A "chip" is a device which disables the stock Ford ROM and substitutes a modified calibration. It plugs into the J3 connector on the back of the EEC(just like Ford does it).
So does the EEC-Tuner but it is user changeable(which is what makes it so good) with Laptop, no eprom burning to be done and no extra cost.

The Fact that your car did not run well with stock EEC does not mean it can't. It just means that something was amiss that was not recognised. I have converted many vehicles to EECIV operation with far more modifications than yours and they run just fine.

Real time is nice but not absolutely necessary, the main thing is you can change the actual Ford maps with the 'Tuner. And the EEC cannot learn around the changes with an EEC-Tuner as it does with any piggy back device.

As I said before I'm only interested in the best solution.

ebxr8240,
Did you know that Mr Granatelli used to own Paxton?
Pro-M or Best products was started by Bob Atwood who was MAF engineer at Ford originally. Explains why the Pro-M stuff is so good really.

Pete.
 
#24 ·
Hi,

I guess we hit a slight language barrier there. When people have explained "piggy back" systems to me - they always referred to the chips that plug into the EEC (like powerchip and chiptorque) hence the name piggyback... it plugs into the back of the EEC (piggyback off the EEC)

The unichip has always been described as an "interceptor" ..

I said in another thread, that I would love a EEC tuner. But as I have no one around with a great deal of knowledge in this, its hard for me to do this (I am not going to play around with air and fuel ratios myself). I guess its convienience that makes me stay with my unichip... it works brilliantly, and there are quite a few people around who can program it. (plus croydon autosports give me discounts!!)

Anyways... back to the orginal questions..

You suggested getting 30lb injectors. Is this over kill? or will I need that size for when I get the blower?

I am hoping to get the new TB in the next month or so. most people have recommended the 70mm. as the one for me. (as I am going for power... not torque)

Hopefully sometime this year I will also be getting an edlebrock performer manifold, and new heads. (after spending a LOT of money on my current heads, I have been told I will be better off with different ones.

I already know I will need a stronger gear box (my current one is slowly dying as it cant handle what she has at the moment), and with that... a new tailshaft and a 9 inch diff.
bigger brakes are also on the menu, and I will be looking at a different block sometime down the line...

I know its going to cost me a LOT of money... but I am having a lot of fun!!
 
#25 ·
xr8chic

I am running the exact if not a very close combination to your self, EEC4 still ran the car without the chip. Idled and drove OK but didn't have the same power or acceleration, even with the big MAF! It cruised and during hard acceleration still felt good up to 5000.
I was told that there are different versions of the EEC4, that is what I was told when I purchased the chip. I physically had to remove the computer and send it to the programmer.
 
#26 ·
Re: xr8chic

LTDHO said:
I am running the exact if not a very close combination to your self, EEC4 still ran the car without the chip. Idled and drove OK but didn't have the same power or acceleration, even with the big MAF! It cruised and during hard acceleration still felt good up to 5000.
I was told that there are different versions of the EEC4, that is what I was told when I purchased the chip. I physically had to remove the computer and send it to the programmer.
Hi,

My car wouldnt idle at all after I got the engine rebuild. It was a nightmare.!! really embarrasing too... having to restart the car up to 4 times at every lights (it stalled even when I had my foot on the gas, and clutch!!). It was also very dangerous... I have lost count of the amount of times it stalled while I was going around a corner!
The unichip fixed all that, and the car runs fine (and revs past 6000 - although I usually change at 5500 as that is where my peak power runs out..). I did used to whinge about the car running rough (especially in the cold... it used to take a few mins to get it to idle right)... but thats all gone with the new MAF

Cobra XR also had issues after doing a few mods (cobra intake) his car didnt idle right, and played up a lot... But it all worked sweet when he got a ELGT EEC.

I have no doubt that a correctly programmed EEC will get my car running perfect, but with no one around to program them, I am happy with my unichip.
 
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