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Old 08-22-2004, 21:17   #1 (permalink)
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Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

I will try to be concise, but typing out the description may help me figure it out.
Issue begins: (possible irrelevent clue) noticed low battery in remote for keyless entry indicated by reduced range of lock enable..

Entered car after parked for aprox 20 min, insert key and put foot on brake. Turn key and get no response other than the usual lights. Check gear position and foot on brake and repeat. No response. turn off key and try shifting automatic lever out of park and back. When it goes back into park it engages the starter even though I have the key in my hand. I quickly put the key back in and as soon as I turn it to power on, the engine starts up. I hear rattle that seems to indicate starter is still trying to rotate with flywheel. I move the shift to "R" and the noise stops. At this point you may say, "well it started so whats yer problem?"
When I move the gear shift back to either neutral or park I hear the familiar sound of a starter trying to start a car thats already running....

So I think the neutral safety switch or something similar is stopping the power to the starter when it is in gear.

So I test this several times and replace the battery on my remote since it also includes a remote start feature... but testing the remote start gives no error on the alarm console and I hear the relays click and the usual lights flash as if it is going through the sequence, which stops , as it should , since I have the car in drive to keep it from cranking.

Consulting the chiltons manual *seems* to indicate that there is no starter relay on the wiring diagram and a cursory look under the hood does not find one either.

Does anyone know where to look exactly, for a starter relay to check for short? Or any other clues for this ? I cannot put it up on the ramp or jackstands until the road work on my street is completed next week, since they tore up the only flat section of the front driveway... I will find a place to get under it tomorrow, but it is currently parked and chocked with the key in it and in gear. If the battery is dead tomorrow I will know that a short is in the sequence somewhere... and start out by power cycling the system by disco of battery before tracing each wire in the start circuit and disengaging the remote start.

Data:
Ford Escort LX 1993, DOHC 1.8 (Mazda engine?) Auto trans.

and after market:
SEC-8063
REMOTE MADE BY: ALPINE
BUTTON: 4
LED or LIGHT: green
FCC ID: B23AT68
P/N - MODEL: SEC-8063

and possible Alpine remote start mod. or other mfg, (not located yet.)

Bought used and I have no idea who the dealer is.
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Old 08-23-2004, 06:07   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

I can't see your '93 Escort is too different from an '83... Your relay should be built into the Bendix on the starter motor. Look for some little wires going in, as well as the big ones.

It seems that the problem is actually with the security system, triggered by the low remote battery. You might want to bite the bullet and get a friendly mobile auto-electrician to suss it -- or try to remove it completely. The lack of a clear signal could have confused the logic system, which is why it tries so hard to start the engine -- but can't detect that it is running.


At least you don't have it locking you out with your keys/kids/dog/partner in... And refusing to let you in even if you do have the keys...
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Old 09-02-2004, 18:27   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

So far I have removed the auto-start modual, removed all associated relays (unpluged for test) and it still energized as soon as the battery was reconnected. (entire alarm system disconnected) I unraveled all the aftermarket wiring under the dash and traced out all connections for the alpine alarm and DEI valet and compared them to the factory wiring diagram and install instruction. No faults found.

So I removed the starter and took it into a store with a starter tester. Works fine. so no short in Sol switch.

I guess I am taking the ignition apart next...


any other ideas?
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Old 09-03-2004, 08:06   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

Quote:
So I think the neutral safety switch or something similar is stopping the power to the starter when it is in gear.
I'm beginning to think that you may have a "short" in the wiring harness, feeding the low tension (little wires) to the Bendix. Do you know the workings of the Bendix solenoid? Not that it really matters right now... The question you need to consider -- if it IS a short in the wiring harness -- is how it got there. Happy unsplicing!

One of the problems built into many autos is the extremely bad habit of switching the circuit on the negative side rather than the positive. They do this 'cos it's easier, especially with a "ring main" harness. It's okay while the vehicle's new/under warranty, but it becomes a right pain the ass down the track.
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Old 09-03-2004, 15:26   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

You dont have a short..not at all.I brought the first batch of remote start alarms that i know of 14 years ago....It is 100% your remote start system .The remote start system is installed with its own neutral safety switch on your gearshift lever.With a little wire chord.This is so the car does not start while in gear..because the remote start overrides the factory neutral switch.The starter motor wire is cut under your dash near your key barrel.You may have to undo the steering cowling to find the cut..Then bypass it with a crimp connector.Ps the problem is that you still have one more relay being triggered by the separate neutral safety switch form the remote start..not the car.It is a changeover relay.When the car is in neutral it will start.When the car is in park it should start too!!.Chances are that the neutral safety switch has shit itself.If you have a centre console takieit off and have lokk foryourself...but first of all ....check under your dash to remove and by pass the relay which i have already mentioned..This is your problem ..i know it!!ps throw the alarm out...when you find the problem
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Old 09-04-2004, 06:41   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

Thanx useless... Must confess I've never played with these Very Expensive Alarm systems, so I didn't know they did so many complicated long division sums. I learn something every day :) Just goes to show -- the more bells and whistles the more chance of singing out of tune! I like your advice to throw the alarm out!!!! (All I ever use is a jack-plug immobiliser with a 120dB siren.)
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Old 09-08-2004, 14:52   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

I am headed in that direction now... The alarm system is indeed complex, which has taken me a long time to trace out and test components.

At this point, I was just headed out to get a steering wheel puller since Mine is very old and does not have the right bolts... but I have not seen the console secondary safety switch yet but I will look for that before I pull the steering wheel. I tested the start cut relay and found it good and I was thinking of verifying that there was no relay trigger voltage coming to the cut out switch, but several people had told me I could rule out the alarm and remote start if I had tested it with them removed. I had discod both the 8063 and the valet remote start and unpluged all the valets relays and it still energized the starter when the battery neg pole was reattached. The orange wire from the alpine 8063 is supposed to energize the starter cut relay when the hood switch or brake switch is triggered and it does not. The only part of the aftermarket system that stopped the starter was removing the starter cutout relay. However this only told me that the open circuit I held in my hand (the removed relay) did exactly what it was supposed to do...

At this point I was ready to take out the ignition switch and bench test it since I have a better chance of ruling out every damn thing else on the car than finding a fault in the alarm.

Back to the garage...



Quote:
Originally Posted by useless
You dont have a short..not at all.I brought the first batch of remote start alarms that i know of 14 years ago....It is 100% your remote start system .The remote start system is installed with its own neutral safety switch on your gearshift lever.With a little wire chord.This is so the car does not start while in gear..because the remote start overrides the factory neutral switch.The starter motor wire is cut under your dash near your key barrel.You may have to undo the steering cowling to find the cut..Then bypass it with a crimp connector.Ps the problem is that you still have one more relay being triggered by the separate neutral safety switch form the remote start..not the car.It is a changeover relay.When the car is in neutral it will start.When the car is in park it should start too!!.Chances are that the neutral safety switch has shit itself.If you have a centre console takieit off and have lokk foryourself...but first of all ....check under your dash to remove and by pass the relay which i have already mentioned..This is your problem ..i know it!!ps throw the alarm out...when you find the problem
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Old 09-08-2004, 21:55   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

where do you live?
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Old 09-26-2004, 00:09   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

I have an 87 P/U 6 cyl Standard tran. It has twice done this. I tryed to start it and after letting the key go it keeps sending power to the starter. Last time it drained the baterry before it quit. ??? Starter or starter relay switch short. I have no remote start or security system.
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Old 10-20-2004, 17:10   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Starter engaged with ignition switched off, key removed.

It was the relay switch (the battery cable goes to one side and the other side goes to the starter. )
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