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Old 10-21-2003, 23:20   #1 (permalink)
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BlownV8 - similar project

Getting my own project back on track... not too different.

1970 Capri
302W (mexican block) stroked to 347
FordMotorSports alloy heads (Edelbrock clones? prolly keep them)
FordMotorSports alloy inlet manifold (single plane, might throw this out)
Borg-Warner T5 alloy gearbox
3.51 9" diff (free)
Rod Hadfield rail kit
Ford EF disc brakes on all corners.

Went off the rails for a couple years while went overseas collecting the green.
A different engineer is now doing the engine, he's been through the parts that the first guy ordered and tossed most of it out. About to order all the good stuff (forged pistons, Eagle rods and so on), but based on a NO2 setup. All the guys up there (Darwin) are recommending it, but I can't see the point of having max 3 minutes of boost for a highway car. Especially if it's illegal in various states. Not really interesting in dragging, so I'm about to tell them to go back to looking at a supercharged set up.

I'm no engine builder myself, I know next to nothing about everything, so any advice you might have would be appreciated. As a guide I'm looking at 450-500hp with reliability being the main factor. The engine should do 330-350hp normally aspirated, so the blower only needs to add another 100-150.

Also, the first engineer received advice to use 351 timing rather than 302 (the current engineer didn't think there was any difference in timing). I'm guessing, but I think that's because 302 timing has the 7/8 cylinders firing next to other, leading to the rear two cylinders running hotter and more wear. Heat may well be a problem with this car (probably use a Commodore 5-core radiator). Any thoughts?
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Old 10-22-2003, 01:38   #2 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

So 7/8 fire a milli second apart it would make no difference in cooling as it still has to fire every second revolution..It maybe more to do with ballance etc..Btw the efi 302 [HO] runs the same timing...
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Old 10-22-2003, 02:03   #3 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

What type of Blower are you using and is you HP goals the absolute MAX. Cause if they are you should be able to do that sort of power under boost on a stock 5.0 bottom end.

Also the T5 will probably shag it self under power. They can be converted to dog gears but it is a bit of a silk purse out of a sows ear routine.
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:55   #4 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

ebxr82:

You're probably right about the timing. It's just that most people I talk to about 351 timing for a 302 raise their eyebrows and scratch their heads. I'm really trying to find out if there is any significant advantage to 351 timing over the standard 302 timing, and whether I should push it.

Not ford:

The box is out of a Mustang HO, I'm told it's the BW T5 by the people holding it in their hands. Hard to tell from several thousand kilometres away. Haven't decided on the blower yet, that's part of the advice I'm after. I may just get the engine builder to talk to CAPA directly. 450-500 is the most I'm after, I have to drive the thing on the streets so I don't want anything too ridiculous. The bottom end will not be standard, reliability is a major factor in the build-up.
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Old 10-23-2003, 00:54   #5 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

Are you going efi or carby because the Ford Motorsport single plane is a rebadged Edelbrock Vic Jr as are the Heads (RPM). To reach your N/A power goals you would need a cam of about 224In/230Ex degrees @050" on a 114LSA.

A right sized Vortech s/c should comfortably push that to 500fwhp. In theory it shouldn't be too brutal on the T5 at low revs, i.e torque monstar. The best blower i believe is a screw but I not sure about bolt on kits and availability in Australia.

A set of forged piston would be nice for boost. Although Hypereutictics will work quite well on a good tune reliably.
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Old 10-23-2003, 19:22   #6 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

not ford:

Carby, prolly a Holley 750 (347x7200-odd/3456 =722, I'm assuming blower increases volumetric efficiency). I don't want any engine management or fuel injection stuff: if it fails near some country town it's likely the locals won't have the first idea of what's wrong, let alone fix it. I have a set of Keith Black hypereutectics pistons from the first engine builder, but the current engineer is getter better forged ones.

I was hoping BlownV8 would reply, I noticed he has a Autorotor blower (which from their website CAPA don't appear to supply), I was wondering if there was some particular reason for that choice. Perhaps it fell off the back of a truck.

Is it possible to get a clutch or something for a supercharger, so it can be engaged/disengaged by the driver? (I keep remembering Mad Max flipping a switch in the Intercepter and the blower suddenly come to life).

And I'd still like to know if 351 timing is worthwhile. I might ask in the Windsor section.
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Old 10-23-2003, 19:40   #7 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

Blow thru or draw thru?? If its draw thru you will have to tap a vac source if the carby is a 3310 Vac Sec. If its blow thru I would use a DP instead.

The Jap blowers are clutched. You would need at least 2 x 1G-GZE blowers, together they would do about ~420fwhp at 10psi with a 1.4:1 drive ratio (saw a 350 chevy do this). I would think their limit combined would be 500fwhp. There is apparently a larger Jap blower but I havent seen any of these but they do exist and would be better suited. They come off a 3L 6 cylinder Mitsubishi I think from the late 80's.

Search the American sites for the info you're looking for on the motor timing.
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Old 10-23-2003, 21:02   #8 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyvern
not ford:

Carby, prolly a Holley 750 (347x7200-odd/3456 =722, I'm assuming blower increases volumetric efficiency). I don't want any engine management or fuel injection stuff: if it fails near some country town it's likely the locals won't have the first idea of what's wrong, let alone fix it. I have a set of Keith Black hypereutectics pistons from the first engine builder, but the current engineer is getter better forged ones.

I was hoping BlownV8 would reply, I noticed he has a Autorotor blower (which from their website CAPA don't appear to supply), I was wondering if there was some particular reason for that choice. Perhaps it fell off the back of a truck.

Is it possible to get a clutch or something for a supercharger, so it can be engaged/disengaged by the driver? (I keep remembering Mad Max flipping a switch in the Intercepter and the blower suddenly come to life).

And I'd still like to know if 351 timing is worthwhile. I might ask in the Windsor section.
Its been a while since i've been on. Hope the following info will give you some ideas.
In my project i was using a newer 5.0L block, with the injection system. These newer motors actually use 351 windsor timing. Thats probably where the confussion has come in. Old carbie, and new injected 302's do have different timing. I persopnally can see no advantage to one or the other, thats just what came from the factory.
As for the blower, the reason i chose autorotor, is that is is a twin screw possitive diplacement unit. And only needing a maximum of 13,000 rpm to achive maximum power. Vortech's and other centrifugal blowers are like turbos and need 80 - 90,000 rpm to achieve peak boost levels. This equals heat, an engines worst enemy. With the autorotor, these is less need for intercooling, aftercooling or methanol injection to reduce intake temps, as they are quite o.k. already. The reason i was running NOS on it as well was for drag racing only, and i was mainly using it to cool the intake just a little bit more, for a bit more squirt on the track. I was only looking at about 50 - 75 shot at best.
One thing to keep in mind when selecting blowers too is that the MK1 capri does not have a bog engine bay, you would not fit a vortech on the side of a windsor without seriously cutting out the inner guard of your car. A roots blower, with carbs on top, will hang out the bonnet, and draw unwanted atention. The twin screw blowers like autorotor, sprintex, PSI and whipple are a very compact unit, and draw air from the end of the unit, not top, so are easier to fit under bonnet, giving that street sleeper appeal.

Hope this info helps you make some descissions.
I actually have to change my signature, as i am no longer slotting a 302 between the struts of my capri, i have chosen to put something very different in. But the above was my plans. If you choose to use a top mount roots or twin screm blower, let me know, i can email you the drawings of my custom intake manifold to sit on a windsor engine. The same manifold will get one of these blowers under bonnet in an EB - AU engine bay also.

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Old 10-23-2003, 21:45   #9 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

not ford:

Heh, you're going over my head now. I'll leave all those plumbing details for the engine builder, that's what I'm paying him for.


BlownV8:

OK, I won't push for 351 timing then. Shouldn't need a custom cam now.

I wasn't sure where a centrifugal unit would go either, a Roots runs hot, would probably need an intercooler and is pig-bait, so I was tending towards the twin screw as well. No need for oil lines and so forth. The literature I've been reading say the centrifugal design actually introduces less heat, but I guess they're just talking about the air into the engine and not the heat produced by the supercharger unit itself. The drawings of your manifold would be appreciated. You didn't mention Eaton amongst the twin screws... any reason?


Thanks to all who responded.

Last edited by wyvern; 10-23-2003 at 22:10.
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Old 10-23-2003, 22:03   #10 (permalink)
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Re: BlownV8 - similar project

Eaton blowers are still a roots type blower. They try to push them off as twin screw, because they took a roots blower, added a 60 degree twist to the helical fins, and thought they had a twin screw. The eaton blower is the best of the roots blowers, but no-where near as good as a twin screw. You only have to look at the proce of them. Yella terra sell there a terrcharger, a yellow eaton, for around the $1700 mark, yet the autorotor's are $3600 for the same rated displacement.
Go to http://www.forcedairtech.com.au/ and have a look at their products range. Although they haven't finished the windsor kit yet, you can have a look at the lexus, and ls1 kits and get an idea of the power outputs from the different types of blowers.
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