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One could argue that while the Camry is undoubtably boring (like virtually all Toyotas) it achieves its design function 100%.
It is designed to appeal to people who put function ahead of emotion, it will always start, it seats its passengers adequately, doesn't use much fuel, wont fall apart and will have a good resale when traded on a new boring Camry.
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I'd have to agree with you.
Toyota make vehicles with exceptional reliability & Qaulity Control.
I think some of this passed off onto Holden's in the late 80's early 90's when Holden & Toyota paired up together.
I think Wheels hits the nail on the head when it identifies two types of owner - one that enjoys driving and knows and appreciates a well set up car, and those who just see a car as something to get from A to B. The latter type probably also think its normal to feel like death warmed-up after driving several hundred km, not realising it might be due to poorly designed seats. There are obviously lots of A to Bs, hence the popularity of Toyotas etc.
I've used both Camrys and Pajeros when in a job with fleet cars. The Camry - which I also used on long trips - would have to be one of the worst cars I've ever driven, poor driving dynamics and handling, badly designed driving position, and I felt like death warmed up after a trip! But if somebody hadn't experienced anything better they would probably think it was OK - the differences between good and bad cars are not as marked as they were 30 years ago.
Likewise the Pajero I found crude and harsh and with a cramped interior. The 2nd row really only holds 2 adults and a child, not 3 adults as generally assumed. I think this is due to the steel-bodied Japanese 4WDs having a substantial taper in the sides to try to reduce the centre of gravity. The Wheels comparison with the Territory last year similarly found the Pajero somewhat crude - but then of course it will go further off-road than the Territory.
I think the function factor in fact lies with cars like Territory that are both well-designed and well-executed, the emotion factor with Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi and their reputation for quality and reliability (at least within the first 10 years or so from my past ownership experience, before the oil leaks and rust set in). What is changing the game now is that the Territory has quality and reliabilty but Ford now needs to maintain that and then wait for a reputation to build up.
It's my function side that goes for a Territory. It can't be emotion because I've never fancied Fords before now - it's an exceptional car regardless of its brand. (My only qualification being that I would like to see how well they are holding together after 20-30 years.) The Japanese manufacturers have a lot of good things up front - manufacturing techniques and front end saleable quality which is what gets people in - but they still can't design a really good car that lasts a really long time.
And I agree with you about Holden johnydep. This is what Ford needs to learn - or maybe they have at the factory, but the dealers are a worry.
This is what Ford needs to learn - or maybe they have at the factory, but the dealers are a worry.
I was interested in the customer survey I got from Ford last week which seemed to focus very heavily on the dealer's performance - particularly the service department. Maybe Ford has got the message.
I think Wheels hits the nail on the head when it identifies two types of owner - one that enjoys driving and knows and appreciates a well set up car, and those who just see a car as something to get from A to B. The latter type probably also think its normal to feel like death warmed-up after driving several hundred km, not realising it might be due to poorly designed seats. There are obviously lots of A to Bs, hence the popularity of Toyotas etc.
I've used both Camrys and Pajeros when in a job with fleet cars. The Camry - which I also used on long trips - would have to be one of the worst cars I've ever driven, poor driving dynamics and handling, badly designed driving position, ........................
.............the emotion factor with Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi and their reputation for quality and reliability (at least within the first 10 years or so from my past ownership experience, before the oil leaks and rust set in). ................
I drive quite a few vehicles, and I don’t think that the standard model Camry’s are any better or worse than standard model Commies & Falcon’s for every day driving.
All three manufacturers build sport versions for spirited driving, and luxury versions for silent, comfortable driving.
As far as rust problems, I don’t see too many Jap cars with rust problems these days, I think they sorted that out in the late 80’s to early 90’s. But Fords do have a rust problem; have a look under the door sill of an EL Falcon.
Talk to any Toyota owner reliability and quality, 90% of the time you will get a positive remark.
When I was looking for a vehicle, reliability was very important and Toyota was one of my early first preferences, almost became a Prado owner. Then Holden released tha Adventra, I have always been a mad Holden fanatic, but the Territory was/is such a excellent vehicle I had to have one.
I am not a Ford fanatic, just a mad Territory fanatic
…the Camry and Avalon. The fully integrated Altona manufacturing plant incorporates state-of-the-art stamping, paint and assembly lines to produce cars that have been independently recognised as Australia's best quality locally built vehicles.
…….. Australian built Camry's consistently match the highest standards of any Toyota manufacturing plant in the world.
Japanese automobiles are the true kings of the road, judging by the latest annual "Best Cars" issue of Consumer Reports magazine, which hits newsstands next week.
All of the vehicles in the magazine's list of "top picks" in 10 different categories for 2005 are Japanese………..
Sorry to harp on again about Toyota but I read that Boeing were trying to improve their quality to meet or exceed Toyota's. This had something to do with how many faults per part were occurring.
While this may be a worry to those of us about to fly on a Boeing I'm assurred by a Qantas engineer that they are way better built than an Airbus, He works on both and has a saying "if it aint a Boeing I aint going".
Back to the Territory all I hope is that Ford gets its act together and strives to improve its quality control and dealer network. They have improved markedly over the AU but owning a Ford can often be a bitter sweet experience.
Hey what a great thread this is turning into. Only pity about the internet is we can't have the chat over a few drinks! I guess I was trying to say that I agree on Toyota's reputation for qualtity - numerous manufacturers have been seeking links with Toyota to capitalise on that. e.g. the new Peugeot Citroen Toyota plant in Czech Republic which should lead to us seeing better Pugs and Citroens (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/63985). Its just that Toyota's products may be well-built but they are often unexciting, uncomfortable or downright dangerous (Landcruiser). We spend a lot if time in cars and I'd rather enjoy the experience, but obviously it helps if the car isn't in the service dept every second week (as one disgruntled Explorer owner said to me recently). Our Terryota has stayed out of trouble so far! Keep it up Ford San!
Hey what a great thread this is turning into. Only pity about the internet is we can't have the chat over a few drinks! I guess I was trying to say that I agree on Toyota's reputation for qualtity - numerous manufacturers have been seeking links with Toyota to capitalise on that. e.g. the new Peugeot Citroen Toyota plant in Czech Republic which should lead to us seeing better Pugs and Citroens (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/63985). Its just that Toyota's products may be well-built but they are often unexciting, uncomfortable or downright dangerous (Landcruiser). We spend a lot if time in cars and I'd rather enjoy the experience, but obviously it helps if the car isn't in the service dept every second week (as one disgruntled Explorer owner said to me recently). Our Terryota has stayed out of trouble so far! Keep it up Ford San!
Yeah - imagine if the Terri was built by Japanese and they also ran the Quality Management System. I think Ford's main problem is that they've started to work on the quality concept but their parts suppliers are light-years behind. I think we've been protecting Aussie jobs too long in this sense - if they're not cheap and they're not building world-class components then they should find a different job. I'm sure there's a few million Chinese/Thais/etc who'd do a substantially better job for less money - and we can start to use our free trade agreements better.
I'm an Aussie and support local product but if it's not up to scratch then I won't buy it. At this stage the Terri's been very good but I get the feeling that that's an exception with Ford/Holden rather than the norm.
Yeah - imagine if the Terri was built by Japanese and they also ran the Quality Management System. I think Ford's main problem is that they've started to work on the quality concept but their parts suppliers are light-years behind. I think we've been protecting Aussie jobs too long in this sense - if they're not cheap and they're not building world-class components then they should find a different job. I'm sure there's a few million Chinese/Thais/etc who'd do a substantially better job for less money - and we can start to use our free trade agreements better.
I'm an Aussie and support local product but if it's not up to scratch then I won't buy it. At this stage the Terri's been very good but I get the feeling that that's an exception with Ford/Holden rather than the norm.
Holden are building a world class car and exporting it with great success, they have got their quality control pretty well sorted out.
Toyota Australia also export and their quality control is equal to Japans best. http://invest.vic.gov.au/Press+Room...a+Australia.htm
So it's not the Aussie worker, but the people running the team.
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