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Old 05-09-2005, 17:17   #1 (permalink)
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Problem Starting My Territory

I apolgise if this has already been covered in a previous thread.

On the weekend I hopped into my Territory to duck up to the shops, put the key in the ignition and cranked it over expecting the car to fire up within the 5 - 10 seconds that it normally does, only to find that when I let go of the key the tacho went straight back to zero revs. I then proceeded to crank it over again for about 15 - 20 seconds and it still wouldn't start. I tried this three more times without any result. By this stage I was starting to get concerned about my 3 month old vehicle not starting and thought it best that a professional have a look at it.

At this point I called the Ford Roadside Assistance Line who promptly sent someone out (To my surprise it was actually an NRMA Roadside assistance person). The gentleman simply cranked the motor over with his foot flat on the accelerator and it fired up.

Unfortunately I was at the shops when the gentleman came out to look at the car, however it was later relayed to me by my wife who was home at the time, that this is a known problem with this particular motor across the falcon range. He said that this is a common occurrence when the car is cold.

Has anyone else experienced this ?

I plan on having this investigated by the dealer I bought the car from, however I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this problem and whether they had followed it up with the dealer to see if there is anything they can do to resolve this problem.
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Old 05-09-2005, 17:30   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Never had any problems with the Territory in this regard. Had enormous problems in this area with my former new Holden Barina - became lifelong friends with the road service man. The solution, only slightly exaggerating, was a new set of spark plugs every week. I got rid of the car after it emptied the cooling system into the engine. Now that car IS a piece of c--p.

BTW, all that these manufacturers' roadside assistance schemes are is a service arrangement with the state motoring body (NRMA, RACV etc) arranged through the manufacturer. It is usually a bit cheaper than direct membership and can be renewed indefintely through your Ford dealer. I've kissed the NRMA goodbye after that corporatisation mess.
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Old 05-09-2005, 18:26   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Had that with my BA Falcon 6 same engine.
AS you did i rang roadside assist and NRMA came. same thing, started it straight away, foot flat.

He said it was simple. I flooded it.
HE said all modern cars do it occasionally. thats its nothing to worry about.
Maybe i accidentally pressed the accelerator at the wrong moment, when it was starting, and it had a belly full of petrol.
He said by holding the pedal flat when starting it forces the Computer into a different mode, or blows out the crap, or something.

Anyway, it only happened once to me. but i know what to do next time. nothing to worry about.
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Old 05-10-2005, 00:19   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amonti72
The gentleman simply cranked the motor over with his foot flat on the accelerator and it fired up.
From what I understand, the electronic throttle does nothing until the car is running (to stop people doing the old carby car thing of giving it a bit to help it start). Starting a fuel injected car and using the throttle is (supposedly) not good for it, so the BA and Territory etc have a throttle sensor that only works once the engine is running.
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:16   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket
From what I understand, the electronic throttle does nothing until the car is running (to stop people doing the old carby car thing of giving it a bit to help it start). Starting a fuel injected car and using the throttle is (supposedly) not good for it, so the BA and Territory etc have a throttle sensor that only works once the engine is running.
Rocket
I think with the Barra that there's a bit more to it than this. This "fix" sounds like the Barra valve reset fix that was published somewhere else in FF. The ECU senses the pedal position as part of it's start-up routine (and of course doesn't feed a stack of fuel to the injectors) and resets the valves. I can't remember the specifics but I know it's in here somewhere.
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Old 05-10-2005, 03:58   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulv
I think with the Barra that there's a bit more to it than this. This "fix" sounds like the Barra valve reset fix that was published somewhere else in FF. The ECU senses the pedal position as part of it's start-up routine (and of course doesn't feed a stack of fuel to the injectors) and resets the valves. I can't remember the specifics but I know it's in here somewhere.
I have the same recollection and also remember (or dreamt ) reading that you can't actually flood the Barra I6 but that the method employed above actually resets the phasing of the cams.

Here's one link I found: especially see post #'s 6 & 8.
Rough idle @ startup, only 1-2 sec.
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Old 05-10-2005, 17:20   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Thanks for the replies. Having owned fuel injected cars for the past 10 years, I am fully aware of the fact that acceleration is not required when starting the vehicle as the fuel flow is controlled electronically, therefore I make a point of not depressing the accelerator when starting the car. All I did when this problem occurred was put the key in the ignition and crank the motor, therefore it baffles me to think that a flooded engine was the problem.

I know it's probably nothing to be concerned about, but the fact that the car is only 3 months old, and I have never had it happen in any of my other cars is a little off putting.
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Old 05-10-2005, 19:26   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curls
I have the same recollection and also remember (or dreamt ) reading that you can't actually flood the Barra I6 but that the method employed above actually resets the phasing of the cams.

Here's one link I found: especially see post #'s 6 & 8.
Rough idle @ startup, only 1-2 sec.
Yep that's the one...

1). Turn ignition to ON
2). Hold foot all the way to floor on accelerator.
3). Turn key as if to start.
4). Dont worry car wont start as sensor on accelerator knows you are flooring it.
5). Hold key like this and count to ten. During this time the starter motor will be going - dont worry this is normal
6). Turn key back to OFF.
7). Take foot off accelerator.
8). Wait 30 seconds then start as normal

This resets the cam phasers - the cause of your rough idle. They seem to need reseting from time to time. It works a gem and you shouldnt have any more problems for quite a while.
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Old 05-11-2005, 05:14   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulv
Yep that's the one...

1). Turn ignition to ON
2). Hold foot all the way to floor on accelerator.
3). Turn key as if to start.
4). Dont worry car wont start as sensor on accelerator knows you are flooring it.
5). Hold key like this and count to ten. During this time the starter motor will be going - dont worry this is normal
6). Turn key back to OFF.
7). Take foot off accelerator.
8). Wait 30 seconds then start as normal

This resets the cam phasers - the cause of your rough idle. They seem to need reseting from time to time. It works a gem and you shouldnt have any more problems for quite a while.
I'd try and get a second opinion on that procedure, from what I have found out the phasers are locked in with hydraulic pins at start up; oil pressure is required to move the pins. The procedure could be correct, but I would not try it on my Terri until I got further info.
Quote:
Variable Cam Timing System

The Barra I6 engines are fitted with dual equal variable cam timing system. There is one Variable Cam Timing Actuator per camshaft; the cam timing is variable between -10° and 50° of crankshaft rotation.

Modes of Operation

Start Up / Idle Mode:
At start up and during idle, the Actuators (phasers) are locked in the fully advanced position. A hydraulic locking pin within the Actuators will lock the camshafts manually.
(Duty Cycle is 0%)
When the throttle is opened and engine speed exceeds 1000 RPM, Drive Mode is initiated

Drive Mode:
The Drive Mode starts at different RPM points, dependant upon Engine Oil Temperature. The PCM actuates the Variable Cam Timing Solenoids through a 20% to 80% duty cycle. This allows oil under pressure to operate the Variable Cam Timing Actuators.
The PCM monitors the Camshaft Position Sensors for actual cam timing (closed loop), it will adjust the duty cycle to the Solenoids individually to achieve the desired cam timing.

Shut Down Mode:
When the engine is shut down, the Actuators return to the fully advanced position, a hydraulic locking pin within the Actuators lock the camshafts manually.

Failure Mode:
Should any of the sensors required for variable cam timing operation fail, Failure Mode is initiated.
The duty cycle of the Solenoids is set at 0%.
The hydraulic locking pin within the Actuators will lock the camshafts into the fully advanced position.

Variable Cam Timing Actuators

The Variable Cam Timing Actuators (phasers) are incorporate into the camshaft drive sprockets; they should not be dis-assembled from the camshaft sprockets as they are serviced as an assembly. They are operated by the Variable Cam Timing Solenoids
There are 5 holes on the rear face of the Variable Cam Timing Actuators, one is for the locating dowel and the other four are for advance oil supply. The retard oil supply is through the centre of the unit.
As you can see in the Start Up / Idle Mode: the Actuators (phasers) are in the locked position (spring load) until the throttle is cracked open & the engine revs hit 1000RPM. So it may be possible that something electronic is reset with that procedure, but I don't know how it is resetting the phasers.
Oil quality & viscosity is very criticle on these engines; too high a viscosity & the phasers will be slow to react, poor quality or dirty oil & the phasers could become clogged or wear out.

Last edited by johnydep; 05-11-2005 at 05:24. Reason: 'As you can see...' & spelling
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Old 07-18-2013, 00:10   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Problem Starting My Territory

Help! I have the opposite problem, My 07 Terry seems to have an issue starting after traveling a distance say 100kms+ then say I stop to get petrol or a drink so the car is turned off only for a few minutes, when I jump back in to re start, it either doesn't start or it starts and immediately stalls. This can happen a few times before eventually starting, on a few occasions I have had no choice except to wait up to an hour to successfully start it. Any help or suggestions would be great, I say it is an issue starting after long kms only because I think it happens when in this situation, very rarely have I had an issue on cold start.
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