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Old 07-19-2003, 21:33   #1 (permalink)
 
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HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query - thread split

The Phase three returned 380HP at the fly wheel. Thats around 285kw. The only reason it dosnt return a higher top end speed is because of its 6150rpm rev limiter. The Phase II happily hit just under 8000rpm. Remove the limiter from the Phase 3, and you get your answer.

Actually, as much as I love the BA GT, the old GTs are much more than half the car they are. Certainly closer than anything else you can spend cash on.

And just to highlight the rarity, ponder this for awhile

THe actual production numbers were

Phase I - 269
Phase II - 662
Phase III - 300

Allowing for 33 years of wear and tear, and that leaves a very very small pool of original vehicles. Hence the price. As I said, even if you have the cash, that by no way means you can buy one. Let alone in a colour you want, or a manual.

Thats why when people find one they want, they tend to be quicker with their cheque book than for most other cars.

Cheers
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Old 07-19-2003, 23:53   #2 (permalink)
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

Quote:
Originally Posted by XWGT
The Phase three returned 380HP at the fly wheel. Thats around 285kw.
Well, one of my past jobs was at a engine rebuilding workshop, the 351's which I built (with similar spec to a phase 3) could not produce more than around 330hp.
In fact my old boss at the workshop had seen phase 3's on the dyno (he's an old bugger) back in the early 70's and his reports were that they were good for around 330hp. With the GT being good for 300hp.
I remember reading about this discrepancy also, as Ford rated both the GT and GTHO at 300hp, however who drove the 2 cars knew the HO had about 30hp more.
Quote:
The only reason it dosnt return a higher top end speed is because of its 6150rpm rev limiter.
No, I'm talking about terminal speed over 400m, so the limiter will not be a limiting factor as the phase 3 only reached about 155-160kph.
Current Falcon GT's reach close to 170kph over 400m, and they are nearly 200kg heavier. Even current XR8's hit just over 160kph.
400m terminal speed is a pretty indicator of HP.
Quote:
The Phase II happily hit just under 8000rpm. Remove the limiter from the Phase 3, and you get your answer.
No, phase 2's suffered from valve bounce above 6000rpm, that's why they fit solid lifters in the phase 3 so it could pull more revs.
In any case, neither engine will pull 8000rpm, Clevelands with the standard rod length struggle at anything past 7000rpm, I know, because we drag raced a 450hp Clevo for many years and it never pulled more than 7000rpm.
Quote:
Actually, as much as I love the BA GT, the old GTs are much more than half the car they are. Certainly closer than anything else you can spend cash on.
This is just personal prefference and way off topic, so I won't go any further there. Horses for courses and all that.........

Rick.
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Old 07-21-2003, 00:45   #3 (permalink)
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

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Originally Posted by Soxx
In any case, neither engine will pull 8000rpm, Clevelands with the standard rod length struggle at anything past 7000rpm, I know, because we drag raced a 450hp Clevo for many years and it never pulled more than 7000rpm.
Rick.

hrmm, I wouldn't bet that a clevo wont pull past 7000. I have personally seen my (ex) XB GT with the tach buried hard against the 7000 rpm on the tach and still climbing. I have seen plenty of stock rod clevos pulling way past 7000.

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Old 07-21-2003, 04:49   #4 (permalink)
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

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Originally Posted by xa-coupe
hrmm, I wouldn't bet that a clevo wont pull past 7000. I have personally seen my (ex) XB GT with the tach buried hard against the 7000 rpm on the tach and still climbing. I have seen plenty of stock rod clevos pulling way past 7000.

I'm not saying they won't pull past 7000rpm, I said they struggle past that.
Standard conrod length in a Clevo is 5.78", this does not encourage high revs because of the severe rod/angle ratio. Similar in some ways to the trouble the Ford I6 has, except the I6 is also plagued by a loooong stroke.
One of the best things to do to a Clevo is to use the 302 (Clevo) rods which are 6", and special low pistons with a higher pin height. This lets them rev to buggery, and make power up there.

Revving a Clevo past 7000rpm with the standard rods is asking for trouble, long term (or even fairly short term) this will split bores, crack pistons and maybe a big end will let go.
I'm not doubting you may have seen it happen or even done it yourself, I'm just saying it is a really bad idea.

In any case, it is pointless to rev them beyond 7000rpm, as they can produce 450hp without revving higher.

Revving a phase 2/3 past 6150 is just punishing valve springs for no reason, as they make peak power below this.
Revving it to 8000rpm is madness.

BTW, tachos are not always accurate either.

Rick.
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Old 07-21-2003, 15:54   #5 (permalink)
 
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

Can I suggest that engines "similar"to Phase III blocks, are in fact, not Phase III blocks.

Every person who should know, will tell you the Phase III delivered aaround 380hp. Phase II 330. Standard 4V Clevos, 300. Its be documented over and over again. If I can find the list I will post the 31 mechanical differences between the Phase III and any other block.

Either way, were way off topic now. Just noticed a guy in the Classic Ford Forums looking for an XW GT. Can't find one for under $50k. Seems our reasonable prices estimates for an original car in good to excellent condition may well be a little under done.

Cheers
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Old 07-21-2003, 16:20   #6 (permalink)
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

Quote:
Originally Posted by XWGT
Can I suggest that engines "similar"to Phase III blocks, are in fact, not Phase III blocks.
Of course you may suggest it, however, you'd be wrong :-).
Quote:
Every person who should know, will tell you the Phase III delivered aaround 380hp. Phase II 330. Standard 4V Clevos, 300. Its be documented over and over again. If I can find the list I will post the 31 mechanical differences between the Phase III and any other block.
I know the differences, I've studied the buggers quite a bit over time, particularly when we were drag racing a Clevo. At one point we made similar power the phase 3 and shortly after we produced considrably more power (450hp), without spinning past 7000rpm. I've also just did a quick search on the net about phase 3 hp, and most of them quote between 360 and 380hp, unfortunately they are also wrong.
If you don't believe me, surely you must be able to see the numbers over 400m? A phase 3 can not achieve more than 160kph over 400m. Cars with much less quoted power (and similar weight) can achieve this.

Just for reference, my old Clevo powered ute ran 14.7 @ 154kph with a close ratio top loader and a 3.5 9". The terminal speed indicates a better ET is possible, but traction and tall gearing due to the close ratio box didn't help.
These times are almost identical to some phase 3 numbers I have seen.
My ute had 310hp.

Rick.
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Old 07-21-2003, 17:26   #7 (permalink)
 
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soxx
Of course you may suggest it, however, you'd be wrong :-).

If you don't believe me, surely you must be able to see the numbers over 400m? A phase 3 can not achieve more than 160kph over 400m. Cars with much less quoted power (and similar weight) can achieve this.



Cheers

Rick.
Just the point. Its called traction. Which, influences terminal speed. The Phase III had 7 inch tyres and a 3.9 diff ratio in some cases. Not exactly the best scenario for traction. However it still acheived low 14s off the factory floor with this very dodgey set up. If it cant launch, it must have some serious mumbo to catch up in the later part of the run.

To ilustrate the point further, the WRX pulls low 13s out of the box, with much less horsepower. Traction, pure and simple.

We could argue this all day, but theres really no point. At the end of the day, it took 32 years to build another car that can match it, and it requires 18inch wheels and an infinately better suspension and grip package to get there. And even though it only costs you $60k to do it in the new GT, it will cost you well in excess of $100k to try it in a Phase III. And thats just life.

Cheers
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Old 07-21-2003, 21:56   #8 (permalink)
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And now we wait for Soxx's response!
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Old 07-21-2003, 22:16   #9 (permalink)
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

Quote:
Originally Posted by XWGT
Just the point. Its called traction. Which, influences terminal speed. The Phase III had 7 inch tyres and a 3.9 diff ratio in some cases. Not exactly the best scenario for traction. However it still acheived low 14s off the factory floor with this very dodgey set up. If it cant launch, it must have some serious mumbo to catch up in the later part of the run.
Ah we're getting somewhere.
Traction is the key to ET, not terminal speed.
Terminal speed is much the same whether you get a good launch or not. This is easily proven, as when we once raced, swapping diff ratios would change ET's but mph would stay the same.
HP influences terminal speed, traction (good launch) influences ET.
Every drag racer knows this.
Quote:
To ilustrate the point further, the WRX pulls low 13s out of the box, with much less horsepower. Traction, pure and simple.
This is not relevant to the phase 3's output at all, the WRX is a much lighter car with AWD. The 400m times are not comparable.

Paull -
Why the sarcasm? You not like friendly discussion?

Rick.
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Old 07-21-2003, 22:50   #10 (permalink)
 
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Re: HO, RPO 83 and Option 97 price query

I dont really see what the point is your trying to make?
Anyone knows that traction is a key component of 1/4 mile time. Even kids in billy carts know that
As for it not effecting terminal speed, your kidding right? The Phase 1, 2 and 3 all had max terminal speeds in excess of 200kph. If there only hitting 160 at the 1/4 mile mark, there still accelerating. Loss of traction delays the amount of time that maximum acceleration is being acheived.Not even going to argue that one anymore.....

As for diff ratios not changing your mph, your kidding right? At a maximum rpm of 6150, rev limited remember, the car can NOT acheive the same mph with 3.9 ratios as compared to 3.5 or 3 for that matter.
Just out of interest, when you say the WRX weighs a lot less, can you tell me the weight of the XW or XY GT? Actualy, dont bother, I've heard enough.

Have a good one
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