Puddin' Man

Re: '94 TBird Brakes

'94 TBird LX V8, 61K mi.,

Had new raybestos pads on front at 49k mi.

Brakes were making noise: sometimes hi-pitched whine.
First thing in morn, scrunching sound, occasional
shudder (only when cold).

So I take it back the shop(Car-X), they shuck the wheels etc:

1.) I gotta very small leak in the left-rear wheel cylinder.
Master cylinder is not really lo, and I've never added
fluid. But it's seeping a tiny, tiny bit ...

2.) The service writer swears to be damned the brake fluid
(same as was in the showroom, I 'spect)
needs to be drained, replaced. Did a nasty looking test
strip. I can't find anything in the manuals about
routine fluid replacement.

I figger the rear wheel cylinders will need to be replaced
soon. How difficult is it to do? I have no special brake
tools.

Are they jivin' po' me about fluid replacement? If not,
anybody know of a web site with bonehead step-by-step
instructions?

TIA,
Puddin'
--
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*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

 

lugnut

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:54:21 GMT, Puddin' Man
<Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote:

>Re: '94 TBird Brakes
>
>'94 TBird LX V8, 61K mi.,
>
>Had new raybestos pads on front at 49k mi.
>
>Brakes were making noise: sometimes hi-pitched whine.
>First thing in morn, scrunching sound, occasional
>shudder (only when cold).
>
>So I take it back the shop(Car-X), they shuck the wheels etc:
>
>1.) I gotta very small leak in the left-rear wheel cylinder.
> Master cylinder is not really lo, and I've never added
> fluid. But it's seeping a tiny, tiny bit ...
>
>2.) The service writer swears to be damned the brake fluid
> (same as was in the showroom, I 'spect)
> needs to be drained, replaced. Did a nasty looking test
> strip. I can't find anything in the manuals about
> routine fluid replacement.
>
>I figger the rear wheel cylinders will need to be replaced
>soon. How difficult is it to do? I have no special brake
>tools.
>
>Are they jivin' po' me about fluid replacement? If not,
>anybody know of a web site with bonehead step-by-step
>instructions?
>
> TIA,
> Puddin'


Welcome to the world of Ford wheel cylinders. They
typically have some seepage. This is not all bad as it
keeps the pistons from seizing. As far as fluid
replacement, there has always been some recommendation to
replace the fluid periodically. It is sometimes called
purging or flushing the system and is usually done at the
time of a brake job. With the advent of ABS brakes, many
techs are either afraid of them or find them to be a PITA to
flush or purge and simply don't go thru the procedure when
they do a brake job. That said, the condition of the fluid
will not usually cause a noise problem but, it is always
nice if the shop can get you to pay for something so the
work is not totally uncompensated. The noise you describe
is not uncommon for some pad materials. It used to be
called morning sickness and is typically harmless past the
first brake application. Raybestos has been one of the
worst about this in my personal annecdotal experience. A
different brand of shoes and pads may or may not be better.
I tend to buy the Bendix pads and shoes when available. The
difference in cost can't be allowed to be a factor in brake
parts buying decisions. My life may be on the line with
your brakes.

Good luck

Lugnut

Puddin' Man

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:39:29 -0400, lugnut <lugnut@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:54:21 GMT, Puddin' Man
><Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote:
>
>>Re: '94 TBird Brakes
>>
>>'94 TBird LX V8, 61K mi.,
>>
>>Had new raybestos pads on front at 49k mi.
>>
>>Brakes were making noise: sometimes hi-pitched whine.
>>First thing in morn, scrunching sound, occasional
>>shudder (only when cold).
>>
>>So I take it back the shop(Car-X), they shuck the wheels etc:
>>
>>1.) I gotta very small leak in the left-rear wheel cylinder.
>> Master cylinder is not really lo, and I've never added
>> fluid. But it's seeping a tiny, tiny bit ...
>>
>>2.) The service writer swears to be damned the brake fluid
>> (same as was in the showroom, I 'spect)
>> needs to be drained, replaced. Did a nasty looking test
>> strip. I can't find anything in the manuals about
>> routine fluid replacement.
>>
>>I figger the rear wheel cylinders will need to be replaced
>>soon. How difficult is it to do? I have no special brake
>>tools.
>>
>>Are they jivin' po' me about fluid replacement? If not,
>>anybody know of a web site with bonehead step-by-step
>>instructions?
>>
>> TIA,
>> Puddin'
>

>Welcome to the world of Ford wheel cylinders. They
>typically have some seepage.

Kinda like the rear-main seal on these 4.6L std. duty
V8's from the early to mid 90's ? :-)

>This is not all bad as it
>keeps the pistons from seizing. As far as fluid
>replacement, there has always been some recommendation to
>replace the fluid periodically. It is sometimes called
>purging or flushing the system and is usually done at the
>time of a brake job.

I couldn't find it in my Ford or Haynes manuals, but it
-might- be in there somewhere ...

>With the advent of ABS brakes, many
>techs are either afraid of them or find them to be a PITA to
>flush or purge and simply don't go thru the procedure when
>they do a brake job.

Should have stated that my 'Boid does *not* have ABS.
I guess I lucked out when I bought it ...

>That said, the condition of the fluid
>will not usually cause a noise problem but, it is always
>nice if the shop can get you to pay for something so the
>work is not totally uncompensated.

I sucked some fluid out of the master cyl. with an
eyedropper, compared it to some unused dot5 fluid I
had on the shelf. The old fluid does not look very
dirty. It smells a little like a radiator hose.

>The noise you describe
>is not uncommon for some pad materials. It used to be
>called morning sickness and is typically harmless past the
>first brake application.

The "tech" had the wheels off, etc. After he wrote the $500
estimate (I declined it all), I asked him if he could blow
the crud out of the exposed pads/shoes. He refused. His job
is to hustle $, not do "favors". So I got some paper towels,
cleaned 'em myself. No more noise now, but it will be back
next week (if not tomorrow).

The shop installed the Raybestos pads several years ago. I
doubt it was done properly. The hub drags a little when you
spin it by hand and the rotors heat up too fast. The rotors
have never been turned, but they say they are "getting
thin". The mngr sez if I replace fluid (which lubricates
components), it'll likely loosen up the actuators so the
pads won't drag. I'm guessing this is a dual dodge: sidestep
the issue of whether the pads were properly installed, and
hustle some $ for fluid replacement.

>Raybestos has been one of the
>worst about this in my personal annecdotal experience. A
>different brand of shoes and pads may or may not be better.
>I tend to buy the Bendix pads and shoes when available. The
>difference in cost can't be allowed to be a factor in brake
>parts buying decisions. My life may be on the line with
>your brakes.

True, subject to geography. For me, brake work is too labor
intensive to scalp pennies on. So I shoulda checked around
before I sprang for Raybestos. Oh, well ..

So do ya think you'd wink at both the fluid replacement
and the rear wheel cyl issues if you stomped in my po'
boots? :-)

Thanks,
Puddin'
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

Paul of Dayon

I am an old-time shade-tree mechanic and have done my own brakes forever. I
will share what I have learned, it might be helpful even tho Lugnut has
covered it well.

I feel that an occasional fluid change / flush is a good idea because DOT3
absorbs water. I have had two cars with brake lines that rusted thru. On
the other hand, they were old cars and in Indiana which supports halp of the
road salt industry every year. I haven't flushed the lines on the '93
Cougar or the '95 CV and the fluid seems perfect in both. If the fluid is
clear and generally appears the same as new, I doubt it really needs to be
replaced. I seriously doubt changing the fluid will make any difference in
your case.

Disc brake pads often make noises. First stop of the day will almost always
be noisier than the rest because a fine layer of rust will develop on the
disc over night. Nothing much to worry about there. The squealing is also
a known problem. More often than not, careful use of squeal eliminator goo
which is smeared on the back of the pads will control it. The last pads I
used had a noise supression coating built in and they are silent. I bought
the best ones I could find. I think they were some kind of carbon-metallic
things. They stop like crazy.

It is also not unusual to hear the pads scrape on the disc a bit when the
wheel is spun. There isn't really anything to retract the pads. The slight
out-of-round nature of the disc is supposed to push the pads back enough.
The cylinder is ever so slightly retraced by the elastic nature of the
seals.

Like Lug sees, don't worry much about the rear seepage. It is perfectly
normal, at least on Fords. You need to decide how much noise you can stand.
Go on the pads might fix it but it might not. Top quality pads correctly
installed won't do much but stop you really well with no complaints. You
have a cool and fun car, enjoy it.

Pod

Puddin' Man

Thanks go to Paul of Dayon, and lugnut as well.

It looks like there's nothing seriuosly wrong
with my brakes. This was my primary concern.

If the brakes are engineered to make some noise,
I guess I can live with it.

It is fairly easy to get some very good advice
on alt.autos.ford. This is not true of a great
many discussion groups.

Skoal,
Puddin'

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:59:53 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
<plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>I am an old-time shade-tree mechanic and have done my own brakes forever. I
>will share what I have learned, it might be helpful even tho Lugnut has
>covered it well.
>
>I feel that an occasional fluid change / flush is a good idea because DOT3
>absorbs water. I have had two cars with brake lines that rusted thru. On
>the other hand, they were old cars and in Indiana which supports halp of the
>road salt industry every year. I haven't flushed the lines on the '93
>Cougar or the '95 CV and the fluid seems perfect in both. If the fluid is
>clear and generally appears the same as new, I doubt it really needs to be
>replaced. I seriously doubt changing the fluid will make any difference in
>your case.
>
>Disc brake pads often make noises. First stop of the day will almost always
>be noisier than the rest because a fine layer of rust will develop on the
>disc over night. Nothing much to worry about there. The squealing is also
>a known problem. More often than not, careful use of squeal eliminator goo
>which is smeared on the back of the pads will control it. The last pads I
>used had a noise supression coating built in and they are silent. I bought
>the best ones I could find. I think they were some kind of carbon-metallic
>things. They stop like crazy.
>
>It is also not unusual to hear the pads scrape on the disc a bit when the
>wheel is spun. There isn't really anything to retract the pads. The slight
>out-of-round nature of the disc is supposed to push the pads back enough.
>The cylinder is ever so slightly retraced by the elastic nature of the
>seals.
>
>Like Lug sees, don't worry much about the rear seepage. It is perfectly
>normal, at least on Fords. You need to decide how much noise you can stand.
>Go on the pads might fix it but it might not. Top quality pads correctly
>installed won't do much but stop you really well with no complaints. You
>have a cool and fun car, enjoy it.
>
>Pod
>
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;