Puddin' Man

Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?

Car in subject line has 61k mi.

I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).

So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
while.

Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.

Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
perpetually tempted ...

Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?

Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?

Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
pump (just like it worked many years ago)?

They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...

I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...

Thanks,
Puddin'
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

 

Sharon K.Cooke

Puddin' Man wrote:
>
> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>
> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>
> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>
> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
> while.
>
> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>
> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
> perpetually tempted ...
>
> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>
> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>
> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>
> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>
> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>
> Thanks,
> Puddin'
> --
> ******************************************************
> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
> ******************************************************;

Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that. I have
109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump. Toss the Haynes
manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the source at:
www.helminc.com

Puddin' Man

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:40:16 -0600, "Sharon K.Cooke" <scooke@cox.net>
wrote:

>Puddin' Man wrote:
>>
>> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>>
>> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>>
>> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
>> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
>> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>>
>> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
>> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
>> while.
>>
>> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
>> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>>
>> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
>> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
>> perpetually tempted ...
>>
>> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
>> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>>
>> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>>
>> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
>> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
>> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
>> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>>
>> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
>> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>>
>> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
>> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Puddin'
>> --
>> ******************************************************
>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>> ******************************************************;
>
>Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that.

Good!

>I have
>109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump.

Thanks. I hoped for as much.

If not the pump, I wonder what? Coolant has never frozen
(was good to -38F, I checked last week): not likely freeze
plugs [do they still have freeze plugs? :-) ].

>Toss the Haynes
>manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the source at:
>www.helminc.com

Looks like $80 for new on helminc and $69 for used on Ebay.
Short on $, I set up an Ebay auto-search.

Thanks,
Puddin'
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

Paul of Dayon

Puddin - I found a factory service manual on CD on Ebay a few weeks ago for
'93 - '94 Fords - I gave $5 for it......... (I had to do a water pump on the
'93 Cougar 3.8L)

PoD

"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
news:g0sep1dq11p58ri1eegpqs28tr5sjt772o@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:40:16 -0600, "Sharon K.Cooke" <scooke@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Puddin' Man wrote:
>>>
>>> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>>>
>>> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>>>
>>> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
>>> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
>>> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>>>
>>> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
>>> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
>>> while.
>>>
>>> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
>>> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>>>
>>> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
>>> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
>>> perpetually tempted ...
>>>
>>> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
>>> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>>>
>>> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>>>
>>> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
>>> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
>>> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
>>> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>>>
>>> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
>>> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>>>
>>> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
>>> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Puddin'
>>> --
>>> ******************************************************
>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>> ******************************************************;
>>
>>Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that.
>
> Good!
>
>>I have
>>109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump.
>
> Thanks. I hoped for as much.
>
> If not the pump, I wonder what? Coolant has never frozen
> (was good to -38F, I checked last week): not likely freeze
> plugs [do they still have freeze plugs? :-) ].
>
>>Toss the Haynes
>>manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the source
>>at:
>>www.helminc.com
>
> Looks like $80 for new on helminc and $69 for used on Ebay.
> Short on $, I set up an Ebay auto-search.
>
> Thanks,
> Puddin'
> --
> ******************************************************
> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
> ******************************************************;

Puddin' Man

Paul,

Much thanks. I didn't glean that such manuals were available
on CD. My simple Ebay search netted only hardcopy for some
reason.

How difficult was the pump replacement on the 3.8L?

Cheers,
Puddin'

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:20:49 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
<plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>Puddin - I found a factory service manual on CD on Ebay a few weeks ago for
>'93 - '94 Fords - I gave $5 for it......... (I had to do a water pump on the
>'93 Cougar 3.8L)
>
>PoD
>
>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>news:g0sep1dq11p58ri1eegpqs28tr5sjt772o@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:40:16 -0600, "Sharon K.Cooke" <scooke@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Puddin' Man wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>>>>
>>>> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>>>>
>>>> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
>>>> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
>>>> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>>>>
>>>> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
>>>> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
>>>> while.
>>>>
>>>> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
>>>> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>>>>
>>>> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
>>>> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
>>>> perpetually tempted ...
>>>>
>>>> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
>>>> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>>>>
>>>> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>>>>
>>>> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
>>>> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
>>>> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
>>>> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>>>>
>>>> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
>>>> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>>>>
>>>> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
>>>> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Puddin'
>>>> --
>>>> ******************************************************
>>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>>> ******************************************************;
>>>
>>>Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that.
>>
>> Good!
>>
>>>I have
>>>109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump.
>>
>> Thanks. I hoped for as much.
>>
>> If not the pump, I wonder what? Coolant has never frozen
>> (was good to -38F, I checked last week): not likely freeze
>> plugs [do they still have freeze plugs? :-) ].
>>
>>>Toss the Haynes
>>>manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the source
>>>at:
>>>www.helminc.com
>>
>> Looks like $80 for new on helminc and $69 for used on Ebay.
>> Short on $, I set up an Ebay auto-search.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Puddin'
>> --
>> ******************************************************
>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>> ******************************************************;
>
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

Paul of Dayon

The worst part of the job was leaning over the front for so long. I think
doing the 4.6 is easier. I just put a new fan clutch on my Crown Vic with
that engine. I think it was designed for easy replacement. I don't recall
for sure but you might not need to remove hoses to do it... On the CV, I
pulled the electric fan & shroud (it has electric and manual fan) and all
was easy to get at. I'll see if I can email you a PDF of the manual pages
later.

PoD





"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
news:shmgp1tmvu6sscfd5r5f53jttjeimb35cr@4ax.com...
> Paul,
>
> Much thanks. I didn't glean that such manuals were available
> on CD. My simple Ebay search netted only hardcopy for some
> reason.
>
> How difficult was the pump replacement on the 3.8L?
>
> Cheers,
> Puddin'
>
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:20:49 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
> <plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Puddin - I found a factory service manual on CD on Ebay a few weeks ago
>>for
>>'93 - '94 Fords - I gave $5 for it......... (I had to do a water pump on
>>the
>>'93 Cougar 3.8L)
>>
>>PoD
>>
>>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>>news:g0sep1dq11p58ri1eegpqs28tr5sjt772o@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:40:16 -0600, "Sharon K.Cooke" <scooke@cox.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Puddin' Man wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>>>>>
>>>>> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>>>>>
>>>>> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
>>>>> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
>>>>> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>>>>>
>>>>> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
>>>>> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
>>>>> while.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
>>>>> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
>>>>> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
>>>>> perpetually tempted ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
>>>>> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>>>>>
>>>>> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>>>>>
>>>>> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
>>>>> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
>>>>> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
>>>>> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>>>>>
>>>>> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
>>>>> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
>>>>> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Puddin'
>>>>> --
>>>>> ******************************************************
>>>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>>>> ******************************************************;
>>>>
>>>>Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that.
>>>
>>> Good!
>>>
>>>>I have
>>>>109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump.
>>>
>>> Thanks. I hoped for as much.
>>>
>>> If not the pump, I wonder what? Coolant has never frozen
>>> (was good to -38F, I checked last week): not likely freeze
>>> plugs [do they still have freeze plugs? :-) ].
>>>
>>>>Toss the Haynes
>>>>manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the
>>>>source
>>>>at:
>>>>www.helminc.com
>>>
>>> Looks like $80 for new on helminc and $69 for used on Ebay.
>>> Short on $, I set up an Ebay auto-search.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Puddin'
>>> --
>>> ******************************************************
>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>> ******************************************************;
>>
> --
> ******************************************************
> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
> ******************************************************;

Puddin' Man

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:13:00 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
<plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>The worst part of the job was leaning over the front for so long. I think
>doing the 4.6 is easier.

I guess maybe the front of the 4.6 isn't so far back as
the 3.8 ...

>I just put a new fan clutch on my Crown Vic with
>that engine. I think it was designed for easy replacement. I don't recall
>for sure but you might not need to remove hoses to do it... On the CV, I
>pulled the electric fan & shroud (it has electric and manual fan) and all
>was easy to get at. I'll see if I can email you a PDF of the manual pages
>later.

Got the PDF for the pump, no problem.

Paul of Dayon is "A Gentleman And A Scholar!" (and a nice
guy to boot)!

The fan and shroud disassembly etc are pretty well covered in
the Haynes manual (the thing's not a -total- loss), so I'm
"good to go", or will be when the snow melts.

Copious Thanks,
Puddin'

>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>news:shmgp1tmvu6sscfd5r5f53jttjeimb35cr@4ax.com...
>> Paul,
>>
>> Much thanks. I didn't glean that such manuals were available
>> on CD. My simple Ebay search netted only hardcopy for some
>> reason.
>>
>> How difficult was the pump replacement on the 3.8L?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Puddin'
>>
>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:20:49 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
>> <plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Puddin - I found a factory service manual on CD on Ebay a few weeks ago
>>>for
>>>'93 - '94 Fords - I gave $5 for it......... (I had to do a water pump on
>>>the
>>>'93 Cougar 3.8L)
>>>
>>>PoD
>>>
>>>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>>>news:g0sep1dq11p58ri1eegpqs28tr5sjt772o@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:40:16 -0600, "Sharon K.Cooke" <scooke@cox.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Puddin' Man wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re: '94 TBird LX V8: Water pump?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Car in subject line has 61k mi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I pull out the garage the other day, look back, see little
>>>>>> puddle. Not at all inclined to ignore such things, I go back,
>>>>>> determine it is coolant (ethylene glycol and water).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I pull my usual trick, throw huge piece of cardboard
>>>>>> under rediator/motor, wait for more leaks. No leaks for a
>>>>>> while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now the weather's gone to hell, it's leaking again. Spotted
>>>>>> 2 trickles from the plastic cover under the radiator this morn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every time I open my Haynes manual, I am reminded of the
>>>>>> fact that it would make excellent kindling ... I am
>>>>>> perpetually tempted ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do these 4.6 L beasties typically need a water pump
>>>>>> replacement after only 61k (mostly city) miles?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where's the coolant overflow on this silly goose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Water pump is just above the crankshaft pulley? If it's the
>>>>>> pump, and I put it up on ramps (running), I can crawl
>>>>>> under, maybe see coolant coming out the weep hole in the
>>>>>> pump (just like it worked many years ago)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They didn't move it back the gas tank with the fuel pump,
>>>>>> did they??? Just kidding, just kidding ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't work on it 'till the weather improves, but I can
>>>>>> maybe nail down what to look for in the meantime ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Puddin'
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ******************************************************
>>>>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>>>>> ******************************************************;
>>>>>
>>>>>Water pumps still work the same way, with the weep hole and all that.
>>>>
>>>> Good!
>>>>
>>>>>I have
>>>>>109K on my '94 Mark VIII and it has the original water pump.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I hoped for as much.
>>>>
>>>> If not the pump, I wonder what? Coolant has never frozen
>>>> (was good to -38F, I checked last week): not likely freeze
>>>> plugs [do they still have freeze plugs? :-) ].
>>>>
>>>>>Toss the Haynes
>>>>>manual and look for the factory Service Manual on eBay or go to the
>>>>>source
>>>>>at:
>>>>>www.helminc.com
>>>>
>>>> Looks like $80 for new on helminc and $69 for used on Ebay.
>>>> Short on $, I set up an Ebay auto-search.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Puddin'
>>>> --
>>>> ******************************************************
>>>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>>>> ******************************************************;
>>>
>> --
>> ******************************************************
>> *** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
>> ******************************************************;
>
--
******************************************************
*** Puddin' Man PuddingDotMan at GmailDotCom ***
******************************************************;

Tom Adkins

Puddin' Man wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:13:00 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
> <plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The worst part of the job was leaning over the front for so long. I think
>>doing the 4.6 is easier.
>
>
> I guess maybe the front of the 4.6 isn't so far back as
> the 3.8 ...
>
>

>
> Paul of Dayon is "A Gentleman And A Scholar!" (and a nice
> guy to boot)!
>
> The fan and shroud disassembly etc are pretty well covered in
> the Haynes manual (the thing's not a -total- loss), so I'm
> "good to go", or will be when the snow melts.
>
> Copious Thanks,
> Puddin'
>
>
>>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>>news:shmgp1tmvu6sscfd5r5f53jttjeimb35cr@4ax.com...
>>

I remember the 4.6 being much easier than the 5.0. It's because of the accessory
placement, pump mounting , etc..... It' just easier to get to. The 4.6 actually sits
more foreward than the 3.8, the 3.8 pump has more bolts and accessories to move out of
the way. Remember, straight down over the core support is harder on your back than
down and a little foreword of you. Your shoulders naturally want to extend your arms
back away from your torso a bit. Ok, I went to an ergonomics class a few years back...
I agree, PoD seems like somebody I'd like to have for a neighbor\car cobbling buddy.
We're "almost" neighbors. He's near Dayton, I'm near Cleveland. Close enough in the
grand scheme of things. If he ran into trouble on a car, I'd make the trip for lunch
(and maybe dinner with fuel prices these days;)) and the chance to cavort with another
car guy.

Paul of Dayon

Aww... +BLUSH+ thanks guys...

just glad to help. I've been wrenching under the old shade tree for a long
time...

PoD



"Tom Adkins" <newton5@remove.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Gu6dnf7l0-ZhmgTeRVn-pw@comcast.com...
> Puddin' Man wrote:
>> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:13:00 GMT, "Paul of Dayon"
>> <plus1111@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The worst part of the job was leaning over the front for so long. I
>>>think doing the 4.6 is easier.
>>
>>
>> I guess maybe the front of the 4.6 isn't so far back as the 3.8 ...
>>
>>
>
>>
>> Paul of Dayon is "A Gentleman And A Scholar!" (and a nice guy to boot)!
>>
>> The fan and shroud disassembly etc are pretty well covered in
>> the Haynes manual (the thing's not a -total- loss), so I'm
>> "good to go", or will be when the snow melts.
>>
>> Copious Thanks,
>> Puddin'
>>
>>
>>>"Puddin' Man" <Pudding.Man@Gmail.Com> wrote in message
>>>news:shmgp1tmvu6sscfd5r5f53jttjeimb35cr@4ax.com...
>>>
>
> I remember the 4.6 being much easier than the 5.0. It's because of the
> accessory placement, pump mounting , etc..... It' just easier to get to.
> The 4.6 actually sits more foreward than the 3.8, the 3.8 pump has more
> bolts and accessories to move out of the way. Remember, straight down over
> the core support is harder on your back than down and a little foreword of
> you. Your shoulders naturally want to extend your arms back away from your
> torso a bit. Ok, I went to an ergonomics class a few years back...
> I agree, PoD seems like somebody I'd like to have for a neighbor\car
> cobbling buddy. We're "almost" neighbors. He's near Dayton, I'm near
> Cleveland. Close enough in the grand scheme of things. If he ran into
> trouble on a car, I'd make the trip for lunch (and maybe dinner with fuel
> prices these days;)) and the chance to cavort with another car guy.