Hawk

CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:

> I completely disagree with this. The majority of union workers are not
> as you characterize. Regardless, if they did not have a union,
> management would trounce them. With the help of the government they are
> doing it anyway these days. Managements huge bonuses is demoralizing
> and I think it affects quality as well as production costs.

You claim that management would trounce the auto workers without the
union. Why isn't the management at Toyota and Honda trouncing their US
autoworkers?

According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible
working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in
the US. Nothing could be further from the truth.

From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of
their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of
applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are some of
the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating
under your theory.

The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for
years...no dice.

This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and
the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the
union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good...

A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If
they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at
the numbers, they obviously have one.


(*>

 

gosinn@gmail.com

Hawk wrote:

>
> You claim that management would trounce the auto workers without the
> union. Why isn't the management at Toyota and Honda trouncing their US
> autoworkers?
>
> According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible
> working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in
> the US. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
> From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of
> their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of
> applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are some of
> the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating
> under your theory.
>
> The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for
> years...no dice.
>
> This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and
> the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the
> union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good...
>
> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If
> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at
> the numbers, they obviously have one.

The same is true how they treat their customers

They treat their customers like each and everyone is their only one and
that is why people are so happy buying their products

Mike Hunter

The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits are
those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California.

How long do you think American workers, in low wage plants like those of
Toyota and Honda, will sit back and watch all of those profit going to Japan
tax tree? There is a movement afoot, as we speak, among Honda workers in
Ohio to unionize. ;)

mike hunt


"Hawk" <taoHawk2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11tf3fgnctf4u88@corp.supernews.com...
> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>
> According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible
> working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in the
> US. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
> From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of
> their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of
> applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are some of
> the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating
> under your theory.

Mike Hunter

Not according to J D Powers. Number one in dealer service satisfaction is
Lincoln. Lexus in number five and Toyota is even further down on the list
below Buick.


mike hunt


<gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138202381.159796.219330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hawk wrote:
>
>> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If
>> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at
>> the numbers, they obviously have one.
>
> The same is true how they treat their customers
>
> They treat their customers like each and everyone is their only one and
> that is why people are so happy buying their products
>

John Horner

Mike Hunter wrote:
> The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits are
> those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California.
>
> How long do you think American workers, in low wage plants like those of
> Toyota and Honda, will sit back and watch all of those profit going to Japan
> tax tree? There is a movement afoot, as we speak, among Honda workers in
> Ohio to unionize. ;)
>
> mike hunt


Is there some new news on this? The Unions have tried to organize
Honda's Ohio plants for many years and the past efforts all went down in
flames.

Such as in 1999:
http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/st...13/story7.html

Do you have any more recent information showing that something is
different now?

John

Ted G

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:43p2l3F1o9il1U2@individual.net...
> xblazinlv wrote:
> > I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work out
> >
> >
>
> Not one motor manufacturer can really do without Delphi, so you are
likely
> correct.
> It may be restructured and bits sold off though.
> Huw

Ah! That's where the rub lies, as Delphi will be re-locating
100% of it's Manfacturing operations to Mexico and retaining
only Corporate, Engineering and Sales in the USA.

Delphi is yet another "success story" resulting from NAFTA and GATT.

It looks like ole Ross Perot was really right back in 1990 when he was
talking about that "sucking sound". I just hope Ford, GM and Chrysler
can build a car that sells for under $9000 as that may be all that
out-of-work
Americans can afford in the future....short of a Geely of course.... ;)

(Geely = the Next Big Shoe to drop on Detroit's head ?)
http://www.geely.com/

Mike Hunter

The unions failed to gain representation in the Mack plant and the supplier
plants around the Mack truck plant in North Carolina at first as well, but
they are nearly all represented plant today. NC is a right to work state.

My source is a nephew that works in the assembly plant. True past efforts
to get enough signatures to allow workers to vote on union representation
have fallen short. The latest effort looks more like a vote is likely.
Honda, like all who are targeted by unions, spend a lot a company time and
effort to convince workers they do not 'want' a union. They threaten to
reduce the work force of even shut down and such, but the first thing the
company does is improve the wage and benefit structure. The first thing the
union tells the workers on the next try is, we got you your last employment
package improvement and we are not yet representing you. Can you imagine
what we can do for you if we do get to represent you? LOL

mike hunt



mike hunt
"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:juPBf.36172$Me5.3993@trnddc05...
> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits
>> are those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California.
>>
>> How long do you think American workers, in low wage plants like those of
>> Toyota and Honda, will sit back and watch all of those profit going to
>> Japan tax tree? There is a movement afoot, as we speak, among Honda
>> workers in Ohio to unionize. ;)
>>
>> mike hunt
>
>
> Is there some new news on this? The Unions have tried to organize Honda's
> Ohio plants for many years and the past efforts all went down in flames.
>
> Such as in 1999:
> http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/st...13/story7.html
>
> Do you have any more recent information showing that something is
> different now?
>
> John

Huw

Ted G wrote:
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:43p2l3F1o9il1U2@individual.net...
>> xblazinlv wrote:
>>> I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work
>>> out
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not one motor manufacturer can really do without Delphi, so you are
>> likely correct.
>> It may be restructured and bits sold off though.
>> Huw
>
> Ah! That's where the rub lies, as Delphi will be re-locating
> 100% of it's Manfacturing operations to Mexico and retaining
> only Corporate, Engineering and Sales in the USA.

Delphi has manufacturing plants in most car manufacturing countries in the
world. Most of those plants will continue while some will not.

Delphi has approximately 185,000 employees and operates 164 wholly owned
manufacturing sites, 41 joint ventures, 53 customer centers and sales
offices and 33 technical centers in 38 countries.

It is massive.



>
> Delphi is yet another "success story" resulting from NAFTA and GATT.

It is a victim of overexpansion and undermanagement combined with high
financial gearing.


>
> It looks like ole Ross Perot was really right back in 1990 when he was
> talking about that "sucking sound". I just hope Ford, GM and Chrysler
> can build a car that sells for under $9000 as that may be all that
> out-of-work
> Americans can afford in the future....short of a Geely of course....
> ;)

So Americans don't believe in competitiveness and hard work any longer.
Interesting.


Huw

CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert

Hawk wrote:
> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>
>> I completely disagree with this. The majority of union workers are
>> not as you characterize. Regardless, if they did not have a union,
>> management would trounce them. With the help of the government they
>> are doing it anyway these days. Managements huge bonuses is
>> demoralizing and I think it affects quality as well as production costs.
>
>
> You claim that management would trounce the auto workers without the
> union. Why isn't the management at Toyota and Honda trouncing their US
> autoworkers?
>
> According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible
> working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in
> the US. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I started out by saying it was cultural. Culture is the reason the
Asians dont trounce their workers as readily as US companies do. But
I'm not sure how long Japanese can do business with and in US without
becoming fixated on short term gains as well.

>
> From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of
> their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of
> applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are some of
> the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating
> under your theory.
>
> The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for
> years...no dice.
>

Well I agree with this for the most part, however, these un-unionized
plants still pay based on the rates the unionized plants are paying.
When the unionized plants drop in wages I expect the non-unionized ones
to drop as well.

> This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and
> the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the
> union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good...
>

Without a union workers will get paid like they work at Walmart. You
believe differently?

Im not saying the union is such a wonderful thing. Im just saying that
without it workers would get paid virtually nothing. These companies
have shown that they will pay as little as people are willing to work
for. Which is not *wrong*, but you gotta look out for yourself.

> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If
> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at
> the numbers, they obviously have one.
>

What is a "quality work force?" These are the same folks that work at
Ford/GM. The plants are all clustered within the same cities.


--
Thank you,


CL Gilbert
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Hawk

>> Hawk wrote:
> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:

>>
>> From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one
>> of their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot
>> of applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are
>> some of the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible
>> operating under your theory.
>>
>> The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for
>> years...no dice.
>>
>
> Well I agree with this for the most part, however, these un-unionized
> plants still pay based on the rates the unionized plants are paying.
> When the unionized plants drop in wages I expect the non-unionized ones
> to drop as well.
>

Have you ever considered the possibility that the wages that are being
paid are higher than the true market can bear?


>> This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and
>> the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the
>> union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good...
>>
>
> Without a union workers will get paid like they work at Walmart. You
> believe differently?
>
> Im not saying the union is such a wonderful thing. Im just saying that
> without it workers would get paid virtually nothing. These companies
> have shown that they will pay as little as people are willing to work
> for. Which is not *wrong*, but you gotta look out for yourself.
>

The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is a
shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase. If
there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will drop. Common sense.
What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level that can't
be sustained by the market.

On another point, where is it written in stone that you MUST work in the
same job or industry your entire lifetime? It's up to the individual to
make changes in their life if they aren't happy with where they are at.

If the auto industry pays lousy and offers poor working conditions, do
something about it. Don't sit back and think "I have to be an
autoworker my entire life so therefore they have to pay me what I WANT."


>> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If
>> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at
>> the numbers, they obviously have one.
>>
>
> What is a "quality work force?" These are the same folks that work at
> Ford/GM. The plants are all clustered within the same cities.
>
>

I have a neighbor next door that is a total scumbag. Just because he
lives in the same neighborhood does not mean that he has the same work
ethic or level of marketable skills.

The "quality" workers are going to tend to end up with the better
quality jobs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but on average
it's a fair bet. People that are habitually late or absent are not
going to do as well as someone who isn't over the long haul.


(*>