TWW

"Bob Palmer" <jenbobkatelyn@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:KvWdnUAjd6dKfEveRVn-jQ@adelphia.com...
> The US isn't it's own country anymore. No one seems to know the effects of
> the national debt of trillions of dollars. It is foreign banks and foreign
> countries that hold our debt and dictate our policies and our foreign
trade
> balance. Our President is not much more than a puppet. We will stumble
along
> so long as we can borrow more money. Half of the collected income taxes
are
> used to pay the interest on the national debt. Taxpayers hard earned money
> shipped out of the country. Enjoy while you can.
I am afraid you are right. I am not optimistic at all. Sooner or later the
massive debt we have incurred and the huge trade imbalance has to catch up.
The White House claims the "hot job market" will guarantee jobs for all
those Ford and GM workers laid off. Guess McDonalds must be expanding.


> "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert" <Fake@ThisOneIsFake.com> wrote in message
> news:5b6dnQ5Ijr14rEvenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> > The effects that would naturally occur from excessive offshoring would
be
> > the people couldnt import anymore since nobody could buy. However,
China,
> > Japan hava intelligently hid this effect by purching the bulk of US
debt.
> >
> > Are we still laughing at the Japanese Economy?
> >
> > The Insurance premium excuse is tired. Henry Ford build a hospital for
> > cryin out loud. Its one of the biggest groups of hospitals in this
area.
> > How could he see this and these Million dollar bonus bozos not? Plus if
> > you have so many employees and 3 big ass companies why cant you
negotiate
> > fair rates?
> >
> > The Rich flogg the working class and the world, and blame it on the
> > poor/defenceless. Whats new?
> >
> > CL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > pushdamagicbuttondude wrote:
> >> July 23 2005:
> >>
> >> "More than a month ago, GM informed us that they would be
> >> eliminating another 25,000 additional hourly production worker
> >> jobs, accompanied by the closure of an unspecified number
> >> of production facilities, probably seven. Unless there is aid from
> >> Congress, which developed for Chrysler in the 1980s, we will
> >> witness the disappearance of one of the most powerful
> >> corporations of the 20th century. If GM goes under we will lose
> >> a priceless, technologically advanced machine-tool capability.
> >> The termination of 25% of operating capacity will terminate
> >> the incomes of some 500,000 individuals and suppliers of one
> >> form or another, a tribute to free trade and globalization.
> >> GM is disassembling its operations in the US and globalizing them.
> >> Already 45% of GM's North American production
> >> capacity - some 15 plants - is unused or produces models that
> >> generate little or no profit. That means more closings are on the way.
> >> Then there is the pension plan that is underfunded by $45 billion
> >> and effects 1.2 million pensioners and $270 billion in junk
> >> bonds, which could eventually destroy the derivatives market.
> >> The carnage at GM has only just begun and will be followed by Ford.
> >> Not a pretty picture, but reality as we see it today and in the future.
> >> As long as corporate America offshores and outsources, the American
> >> economy will continue to collapse."
> >> http://www.theinternationalforecaste....php?Offset=18
> >>
> >> September 03, 2005:
> >>
> >> "Detroit and Michigan is a zone of the living dead. Detroit represents
> >> the deliberately arranged decline of American manufacturing.
> >> The dangerous path of offshoring and outsourcing will lead not
> >> only to the destruction of the US economic base, but it will take
> >> down the rest of the world with it. During the past 55 years
> >> Detroit's population has fallen from 1.8 million to 900,000 in
> >> round figures. That is extraordinary deindustrialization. Ford's
> >> River Rouge plant once employed 100,000. Today, it is 6,000.
> >> Since 1970, it has lost 75% of its manufacturing and jobs.
> >> Whole areas of the city have been leveled. We see the same
> >> happening to a lesser degree in Buffalo, NY; Chicago;
> >> Cleveland; Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and generally throughout
> >> Indiana, Ohio, Quebec and Ontario in Canada.
> >> Today the median household Detroit income is one-third lower
> >> than it was 30-years ago. About 50% of homeowners pay 40%
> >> or more of their income on the mortgage on their homes.
> >> Thirty percent of housing stock is in worse condition than normal
> >> and still takes 40% to 50% of income to either finance or pay rent
> >> on. The sad story goes on and we do not see it getting any better
> >> thanks to free trade and globalization."
> >> http://www.theinternationalforecaste....php?Offset=17
> >>
> >> "Delphi, the nation's largest auto supplier, is bankrupt.
> >> Production and 35,000 high paying American jobs are
> >> being moved to China. 12,000 retirees will receive
> >> one-third of their pensions from the PBGC, which is
> >> from us, the American taxpayer. You can thank
> >> General Motors for a failure that was planned 25 years ago.
> >> Delphi wants to cut the wages of 35,000 workers by
> >> two-thirds, or to $10.00 an hour to compete with China.
> >> Delphi employs 185,000 workers worldwide.
> >> *****
> >> GM's future liabilities will increase by $11 billion and in three
> >> years or less GM will file bankruptcy and their business
> >> will be sold off in segments to vulture investors.
> >>
> >> (...re-read that again till it sinks in)
> >> *****
> >> In order to try to avoid bankruptcy Delphi wanted workers
> >> to take wages of $10 to $12 an hour instead of $26 to $30
> >> that they make today. Delphi will also stop paying 4,000
> >> workers who no longer have jobs to do. At the same time
> >> the company management increased the severance packages
> >> of its top 21 executives. Once again, corporate America
> >> cannot help itself. They are consumed with greed. We see a
> >> disgusting spectacle of the people at the top taking care
> >> of themselves and at the same time demanding extraordinary
> >> sacrifices from their hourly workers. Delphi was the 63rd
> >> largest US company with annual revenues of $28.62 billion.
> >> Our Congress and the American people just don't get it.
> >> There economy is being ripped out from underneath them.
> >> Their entire society is being destroyed and no one seems
> >> to care. The answer is protective tariffs and quotas and a
> >> reversal of our national policy of free trade and globalization."
> >> http://www.theinternationalforecaste....php?Offset=13
> >>
> >>
> >> DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!!
> >> THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thank you,
> >
> >
> > CL Gilbert
> > "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
> > man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes
> > 9:16
>
>

 

Angry Dave

I was having a conversation with a Ford Field Engineer, back in 2000,
about their problem of Taurus engines siezing up within 100 miles of an
oil change, and this is what he explained to me...
"Let me tell you how it works.... let's say you are the engineer (at
Ford) that got put in charge of an instrument panel for an Explorer, or
(in this case) the oil pump on a Taurus V6. Your goals (the ones they,
as engineers, are rated on) is to shave weight from the part and/or
shave cost from the part. Makes sense, right? So, they make things a
little thinner, or change to a different, lighter material... whatever
it takes to make the "goals."
But, what happens is the "re-engineered part" does not start mass
failures until a year or two later...
Long after the "successful engineer" has been promoted to another
departmant for meeting his goals."

Yeah that's the way to build 'em.

CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert

Hawk wrote:
>
>>> Hawk wrote:
>>
>> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Well I agree with this for the most part, however, these un-unionized
>> plants still pay based on the rates the unionized plants are paying.
>> When the unionized plants drop in wages I expect the non-unionized
>> ones to drop as well.
>>
>
> Have you ever considered the possibility that the wages that are being
> paid are higher than the true market can bear?
>

If they cant pay they workers then how can they afford such huge
bonuses. Furthermore, if they are actually paying the workers too much,
then how can they still afford the huge bonuses?

>>
>> Without a union workers will get paid like they work at Walmart. You
>> believe differently?
>>
>> Im not saying the union is such a wonderful thing. Im just saying
>> that without it workers would get paid virtually nothing. These
>> companies have shown that they will pay as little as people are
>> willing to work for. Which is not *wrong*, but you gotta look out for
>> yourself.
>>
>
> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is a
> shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase. If
> there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will drop. Common sense.
> What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level that can't
> be sustained by the market.
>

union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then we
would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we will
agree to disagree.


> On another point, where is it written in stone that you MUST work in the
> same job or industry your entire lifetime? It's up to the individual to
> make changes in their life if they aren't happy with where they are at.
>
> If the auto industry pays lousy and offers poor working conditions, do
> something about it. Don't sit back and think "I have to be an
> autoworker my entire life so therefore they have to pay me what I WANT."

I agree with this position. If workers can only work in a single
industry, then they can be colluded against and their wages held low.
But if those same workers can switch to a seperate industry, considering
it will be tougher for seperate industries to collude, then they have
much stronger position.

It also has baked in job security for when one industry takes a dip.



>
>
>>> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly.
>>> If they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force.
>>> Look at the numbers, they obviously have one.
>>>
>>
>> What is a "quality work force?" These are the same folks that work at
>> Ford/GM. The plants are all clustered within the same cities.
>>
>>
>
> I have a neighbor next door that is a total scumbag. Just because he
> lives in the same neighborhood does not mean that he has the same work
> ethic or level of marketable skills.
>
> The "quality" workers are going to tend to end up with the better
> quality jobs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but on average
> it's a fair bet. People that are habitually late or absent are not
> going to do as well as someone who isn't over the long haul.
>
>
> (*>


A man's character is not a function of his union.


--
Thank you,


CL Gilbert
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Huw

TWW wrote:
> "Bob Palmer" <jenbobkatelyn@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:KvWdnUAjd6dKfEveRVn-jQ@adelphia.com...
>> The US isn't it's own country anymore. No one seems to know the
>> effects of the national debt of trillions of dollars. It is foreign
>> banks and foreign countries that hold our debt and dictate our
>> policies and our foreign trade balance. Our President is not much
>> more than a puppet. We will stumble along so long as we can borrow
>> more money. Half of the collected income taxes are used to pay the
>> interest on the national debt. Taxpayers hard earned money shipped
>> out of the country. Enjoy while you can.
> I am afraid you are right. I am not optimistic at all. Sooner or
> later the massive debt we have incurred and the huge trade imbalance
> has to catch up. The White House claims the "hot job market" will
> guarantee jobs for all those Ford and GM workers laid off. Guess
> McDonalds must be expanding.
>
>

It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth industry in
the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep chugging along.

Huw

H.W. Stockman

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:43ucfeF1oh8f4U1@individual.net...
> TWW wrote:

> It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth industry in
> the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep chugging along.


Do you mean "boot" in the British sense, as in "boot and bonnet", or in the
American sense, as in "Denver Boot"? In either case, I'm lost.

Hawk

>> Hawk wrote:
> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:

>> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is
>> a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase. If
>> there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will drop. Common sense.
>> What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level that can't
>> be sustained by the market.
>>
>
> union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then we
> would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we will
> agree to disagree.
>

The union can stage a strike, walk-out, work slowdown, etc. There is
quite a bit of power in that.

I don't work for a union and I don't work for government yet I still
manage to pull in a decent salary and benefits. If there were any push
to unionize my job, I'd fight it vigorously. Why is there always this
huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages are the only
possibility without a union?

I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years
paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve my
situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The
subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to
where I am now.

Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family of
four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If you
don't make enough money to support a bunch of kids and have no plan to
improve yourself so that you can, DONT HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS! If someone
wants to be lazy or satisfied with a minimum wage job, don't come
complaining to me about how hard it is to support the family while
working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the power to decide
our own fate.

On the other hand, lots of money and material objects are not required
to raise a healthy, happy family. It all depends on what a person finds
important. Personally I'd pass on the 60" plasma TV in order to help my
kid pay for a decent education...etc.

I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made
massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't
keep. No one side of this thing is guilt free. It still doesn't change
my opinion that the union does more harm to the employee and company as
a whole.


(*>

Huw

H.W. Stockman wrote:
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:43ucfeF1oh8f4U1@individual.net...
>> TWW wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth
>> industry in the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep
>> chugging along.
>
>
> Do you mean "boot" in the British sense, as in "boot and bonnet", or
> in the American sense, as in "Denver Boot"? In either case, I'm lost.


I mean boot as in the trunk of the car. People gather at regular sales where
they take unwanted or commercial goods and sell them from the back of the
car. It is now a big 'industry' LOL.

Huw

dnoyeB

Hawk wrote:
>
>>> Hawk wrote:
>>
>> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>
>
>>> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is
>>> a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase.
>>> If there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will drop. Common
>>> sense. What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level
>>> that can't be sustained by the market.
>>>
>>
>> union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then we
>> would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we will
>> agree to disagree.
>>
>
> The union can stage a strike, walk-out, work slowdown, etc. There is
> quite a bit of power in that.
>
> I don't work for a union and I don't work for government yet I still
> manage to pull in a decent salary and benefits. If there were any push
> to unionize my job, I'd fight it vigorously. Why is there always this
> huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages are the only
> possibility without a union?

Thats the direction of the country. That seems to be acceptable by the
citizens since they dont fight too hard against it and many are more
hostile to unions that underpaying corporations.

>
> I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years
> paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve my
> situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The
> subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to
> where I am now.
>

Everyone is not so fortunate. Everyone that is poor is not lazy. Not
sure if you ment to imply that or not.


> Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family of
> four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If you
> don't make enough money to support a bunch of kids and have no plan to
> improve yourself so that you can, DONT HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS! If someone
> wants to be lazy or satisfied with a minimum wage job, don't come
> complaining to me about how hard it is to support the family while
> working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the power to decide
> our own fate.
>

I guess you don't suffer fools. 8hit happens. What to do with these
people? If we ignore them they will make our lives less comfortable.

> On the other hand, lots of money and material objects are not required
> to raise a healthy, happy family. It all depends on what a person finds
> important. Personally I'd pass on the 60" plasma TV in order to help my
> kid pay for a decent education...etc.
>

Probably should pass on any inch TV.


> I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made
> massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't
> keep. No one side of this thing is guilt free. It still doesn't change
> my opinion that the union does more harm to the employee and company as
> a whole.
>
>
> (*>


Well i am not union, but I know I would not have a 40 hour work week nor
benefits without the unions work. I used to get paid for overtime, not
anymore, and they seem to expect it. I used to have good health
insurance, not anymore, and company is paying less of percentage. Stuff
has been going the other way for last ~8 years.

I know there is always a fight to get what you are worth. With the open
borders we have, wages will continue to drop. People should be free to
defend their value in any way they can. Just keep the playing field
level and may the best entity win.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Hawk

dnoyeB wrote:
> Hawk wrote:
>>
>>>> Hawk wrote:
>>>
>>> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there
>>>> is a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will
>>>> increase. If there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will
>>>> drop. Common sense. What you have now is the union forcing a
>>>> certain wage level that can't be sustained by the market.
>>>>
>>>
>>> union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then
>>> we would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we
>>> will agree to disagree.
>>>
>>
>> The union can stage a strike, walk-out, work slowdown, etc. There is
>> quite a bit of power in that.
>>
>> I don't work for a union and I don't work for government yet I still
>> manage to pull in a decent salary and benefits. If there were any
>> push to unionize my job, I'd fight it vigorously. Why is there always
>> this huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages are the
>> only possibility without a union?
>
> Thats the direction of the country. That seems to be acceptable by the
> citizens since they dont fight too hard against it and many are more
> hostile to unions that underpaying corporations.
>

Perhaps thats what YOU PERCEIVE as the direction of the country, but I
don't see that in my part of the country and have not seen data to
support it. Of course there can be regional differences.

How do you determine a "fair" pay level for a given job. The market has
to determine that (ie supply of qualified workers and value of the
product being produced) not some arbitrary feeling that a given jobs pay
SEEMS too low.

The economy is a constantly changing entity. The types, amount, and
variety of jobs is constantly in flux. I don't know of any people
training to work in a buggy whip factory these days. Sometimes certain
industries weaken and/or fade away. There are always new types of jobs
being created that offer opportunities in other areas.

I think one of the biggest frauds shoved down peoples throats is the
notion that everyone on planet earth has to have a college degree. The
same people that push that belief are many times the first who will look
down their noses at plumbers, electricians, etc. Learning a trade is a
valuable skill, and can provide a damn good living. College is not
necessarily for everyone, but the idea is pushed that it is.


>>
>> I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years
>> paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve
>> my situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The
>> subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to
>> where I am now.
>>
>
> Everyone is not so fortunate. Everyone that is poor is not lazy. Not
> sure if you ment to imply that or not.
>

Of course not all poor people are lazy, but you also have to acknowledge
that there are poor people THAT ARE. 100% are not lazy, but on the
other hand 100% are not doing the most they can to further themselves.

I truly have compassion for people that are in a tough spot due to no
fault or poor decision making of their own. For example, someone that
is in dire financial condition due to a medical emergency with a family
member. I have no problem helping someone like that out, and do so
frequently with cash, clothes, and food dontations.

The bottom line is that there will always be a portion of the population
that is "poor", and most of the time it is by choice because they COULD
better themselves but choose not to.

There is also a portion of the population with mental health issues, or
problems with drugs or alcohol that will always make up a good sized
chunk of the poor. I don't see that ever changing. You could hand
people in those situations wheelbarrows of cash, and 6 months later
they'd be back in the same situtation.


>> Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family
>> of four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If
>> you don't make enough money to support a bunch of kids and have no
>> plan to improve yourself so that you can, DONT HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS!
>> If someone wants to be lazy or satisfied with a minimum wage job,
>> don't come complaining to me about how hard it is to support the
>> family while working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the
>> power to decide our own fate.
>>
>
> I guess you don't suffer fools. 8hit happens. What to do with these
> people? If we ignore them they will make our lives less comfortable.
>

My whole theory is that people have to become uncomfortable enough to
spark a change in their lives. If someone is constantly bailing them
out, people will just become dependant instead of doing the work
themselves. The path of least resistance is a powerful lure.


>> I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made
>> massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't
>> keep. No one side of this thing is guilt free. It still doesn't
>> change my opinion that the union does more harm to the employee and
>> company as a whole.
>>
>
> Well i am not union, but I know I would not have a 40 hour work week nor
> benefits without the unions work. I used to get paid for overtime, not
> anymore, and they seem to expect it. I used to have good health
> insurance, not anymore, and company is paying less of percentage. Stuff
> has been going the other way for last ~8 years.
>
> I know there is always a fight to get what you are worth. With the open
> borders we have, wages will continue to drop. People should be free to
> defend their value in any way they can. Just keep the playing field
> level and may the best entity win.
>

If you feel the company that you are working for is treating you
unfairly, then make a change. Go out and look at the job market, I
guarantee that if you look hard enough you will find a better alternative.

The only thing that will force a company to improve conditions and
compensation is the loss of valuable employees that cause them to become
uncompetitive in their markets. If there are a lot of people willing to
come in and do your job for less, that is the market speaking.

If people just sit back and accept poor conditions and/or compensation,
what do you expect to happen? The company won't change a bit, because
they won't have a compelling business reason to do it. From their
perspective, since nobody is quitting they assume people are satisfied
with their situation.

I know it ain't easy, but nobody ever said it would be.



Damn, this has been an out and out ramble. I better take a break.


(*>

dnoyeB

Hawk wrote:
> dnoyeB wrote:
>
>> Hawk wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Hawk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there
>>>>> is a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will
>>>>> increase. If there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will
>>>>> drop. Common sense. What you have now is the union forcing a
>>>>> certain wage level that can't be sustained by the market.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then
>>>> we would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we
>>>> will agree to disagree.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The union can stage a strike, walk-out, work slowdown, etc. There is
>>> quite a bit of power in that.
>>>
>>> I don't work for a union and I don't work for government yet I still
>>> manage to pull in a decent salary and benefits. If there were any
>>> push to unionize my job, I'd fight it vigorously. Why is there
>>> always this huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages
>>> are the only possibility without a union?
>>
>>
>> Thats the direction of the country. That seems to be acceptable by
>> the citizens since they dont fight too hard against it and many are
>> more hostile to unions that underpaying corporations.
>>
>
> Perhaps thats what YOU PERCEIVE as the direction of the country, but I
> don't see that in my part of the country and have not seen data to
> support it. Of course there can be regional differences.
>
> How do you determine a "fair" pay level for a given job. The market has
> to determine that (ie supply of qualified workers and value of the
> product being produced) not some arbitrary feeling that a given jobs pay
> SEEMS too low.
>
> The economy is a constantly changing entity. The types, amount, and
> variety of jobs is constantly in flux. I don't know of any people
> training to work in a buggy whip factory these days. Sometimes certain
> industries weaken and/or fade away. There are always new types of jobs
> being created that offer opportunities in other areas.
>
> I think one of the biggest frauds shoved down peoples throats is the
> notion that everyone on planet earth has to have a college degree. The
> same people that push that belief are many times the first who will look
> down their noses at plumbers, electricians, etc. Learning a trade is a
> valuable skill, and can provide a damn good living. College is not
> necessarily for everyone, but the idea is pushed that it is.
>
>
>>>
>>> I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years
>>> paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve
>>> my situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The
>>> subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to
>>> where I am now.
>>>
>>
>> Everyone is not so fortunate. Everyone that is poor is not lazy. Not
>> sure if you ment to imply that or not.
>>
>
> Of course not all poor people are lazy, but you also have to acknowledge
> that there are poor people THAT ARE. 100% are not lazy, but on the
> other hand 100% are not doing the most they can to further themselves.
>
> I truly have compassion for people that are in a tough spot due to no
> fault or poor decision making of their own. For example, someone that
> is in dire financial condition due to a medical emergency with a family
> member. I have no problem helping someone like that out, and do so
> frequently with cash, clothes, and food dontations.
>
> The bottom line is that there will always be a portion of the population
> that is "poor", and most of the time it is by choice because they COULD
> better themselves but choose not to.
>
> There is also a portion of the population with mental health issues, or
> problems with drugs or alcohol that will always make up a good sized
> chunk of the poor. I don't see that ever changing. You could hand
> people in those situations wheelbarrows of cash, and 6 months later
> they'd be back in the same situtation.
>
>
>>> Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family
>>> of four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If
>>> you don't make enough money to support a bunch of kids and have no
>>> plan to improve yourself so that you can, DONT HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS!
>>> If someone wants to be lazy or satisfied with a minimum wage job,
>>> don't come complaining to me about how hard it is to support the
>>> family while working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the
>>> power to decide our own fate.
>>>
>>
>> I guess you don't suffer fools. 8hit happens. What to do with these
>> people? If we ignore them they will make our lives less comfortable.
>>
>
> My whole theory is that people have to become uncomfortable enough to
> spark a change in their lives. If someone is constantly bailing them
> out, people will just become dependant instead of doing the work
> themselves. The path of least resistance is a powerful lure.
>
>
>>> I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made
>>> massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they
>>> couldn't keep. No one side of this thing is guilt free. It still
>>> doesn't change my opinion that the union does more harm to the
>>> employee and company as a whole.
>>>
>>
>> Well i am not union, but I know I would not have a 40 hour work week
>> nor benefits without the unions work. I used to get paid for
>> overtime, not anymore, and they seem to expect it. I used to have
>> good health insurance, not anymore, and company is paying less of
>> percentage. Stuff has been going the other way for last ~8 years.
>>
>> I know there is always a fight to get what you are worth. With the
>> open borders we have, wages will continue to drop. People should be
>> free to defend their value in any way they can. Just keep the playing
>> field level and may the best entity win.
>>
>
> If you feel the company that you are working for is treating you
> unfairly, then make a change. Go out and look at the job market, I
> guarantee that if you look hard enough you will find a better alternative.
>
> The only thing that will force a company to improve conditions and
> compensation is the loss of valuable employees that cause them to become
> uncompetitive in their markets. If there are a lot of people willing to
> come in and do your job for less, that is the market speaking.
>
> If people just sit back and accept poor conditions and/or compensation,
> what do you expect to happen? The company won't change a bit, because
> they won't have a compelling business reason to do it. From their
> perspective, since nobody is quitting they assume people are satisfied
> with their situation.
>
> I know it ain't easy, but nobody ever said it would be.
>
>
>
> Damn, this has been an out and out ramble. I better take a break.
>
>
> (*>

Yea me too. I can't really disagree with any of that.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16