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Old 12-17-2005, 13:01   #1 (permalink)
Puddin' Man
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OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

I pick up the Sun. paper, read a new car "review", sez
the machine (I ferget make/model) is designed to run
on partial cylinders (i.e. 4 of 8) when on the hiway
and at steady speed for quite a while. "Saves gas."

"How Dey Doooooooo Dat???"

So I'm thinkin', partial cylinders, fuel injection is
computer controlled, it just shuts down injection to, say, 4
cyls. But the compression ratio might be something like
7.5/1, and that would make for lots of resistance to
effective power train performance with non-firing cyls.

I don't spend much time keeping up with new auto technology.
Is it possible/conceivable/not-a-nightmare that the valve
train could be controlled by the 'puter (and no longer
purely mechanical)? For partial cylinders, could it hold
1/more valves open for designated non-running cyls? Does
anybody know?

Better yet, is anyone in a position to evaluate the
potential reliability/long-term dependability headaches
that might ensue from such "bleeding-edge technology"?

Just curious ... 'scuse my lack on knowledge.

Cheers,
Puddin'
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Old 12-17-2005, 14:01   #2 (permalink)
trainfan1
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Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

Puddin' Man wrote:

> Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?
>
> I pick up the Sun. paper, read a new car "review", sez
> the machine (I ferget make/model) is designed to run
> on partial cylinders (i.e. 4 of 8) when on the hiway
> and at steady speed for quite a while. "Saves gas."
>
> "How Dey Doooooooo Dat???"
>
> So I'm thinkin', partial cylinders, fuel injection is
> computer controlled, it just shuts down injection to, say, 4
> cyls. But the compression ratio might be something like
> 7.5/1, and that would make for lots of resistance to
> effective power train performance with non-firing cyls.
>
> I don't spend much time keeping up with new auto technology.
> Is it possible/conceivable/not-a-nightmare that the valve
> train could be controlled by the 'puter (and no longer
> purely mechanical)? For partial cylinders, could it hold
> 1/more valves open for designated non-running cyls? Does
> anybody know?
>
> Better yet, is anyone in a position to evaluate the
> potential reliability/long-term dependability headaches
> that might ensue from such "bleeding-edge technology"?
>
> Just curious ... 'scuse my lack on knowledge.
>
> Cheers,
> Puddin'


I'm guessing you've never seen a Cadillac V-8-6-4 ?

Well, that came out 25 model years ago... and didn't last very long.

Check this overview:

http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features46

Rob

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Old 12-17-2005, 15:01   #3 (permalink)
dold@XReXXOTXXX.usenet.us.com
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Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

trainfan1 <lmsearing@usdatanet.net> wrote:
> I'm guessing you've never seen a Cadillac V-8-6-4 ?
> Well, that came out 25 model years ago... and didn't last very long.


That was the mechanical contraption from the medieval ages.

Honda has been running multiple valve trains for several years as part of
their VTEC series, with low RPM and high RPM cam lobes engaged via
hydraulics.

In the Honda Accord Hybrid, the rear three cylinders are shut off during
certain conditions by stopping the valves. Same with all four cylinders of
the Honda Civic Hybrid.

Some GM SUVs have similar shutdowns.
<http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F2BEF-ECD0-119B-ACD083414B7F0000>
<http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38687/Act/Showall/>

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

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Old 12-17-2005, 17:01   #4 (permalink)
Jim Warman
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Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

In the trade we used to call it the 3-5-7.... Most (if not all) had the
displacement modulation devices disabled at one time or another.


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Old 12-17-2005, 18:01   #5 (permalink)
Jim Warman
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Re: New cars run on partial cylinders?

Not knowing anything about the engine, I can still offer opinions...

I'm unsure of how Cadillac handled the valve train on their old modulated
displacement effort... I do know there were solenoids mounted under the
valve covers, but that's about it.

With the current state of the art regarding engine controls, a workable
modulated displacement engine is getting pretty close to "do-able", though I
would have reservations about longevity.

One of the benefits of the much touted 42 volt system (that is always
promised but never delivered), would be solenoids powerful enough to operate
poppet valves (like the intake and exhaust valves in our motors). So, this
mystery auto maker may have a 42 volt system on the go.... or, they may be
using techology from HEUI diesel engines. The Ford PowerStroke diesels
utilize high voltage for injector operation... the old 7.3 works at 115
volts supplied to the injectors and the 6.0 uses 48 volts to the same end.

There is no end to some of the amazing things that have been tried with the
infernal (sp) combustion engine. In the early 80s, Ford had bought the
rights to the "poly-motor".... built largely of space age plastics, this 4
cylinder twin overhead cam engine weighed something like 175 pounds and
delivered (IIRC) 170 horsepower. Ford Motorsports was also hinting of a
ceramic pistoned 1.6 litre four cylinder.... bragging about (again IIRC)
700+ horsepower.

I recall an article on a SAAB engine... I can't recall if the goal was
modulated displacement or modulated compression ratios. The engine was built
similar to the old Offenhauser engines.... the cylinder was cast as part of
the head. In the SAAB effort, the position of the cylinder head was raised
and lowered in relation to the crankshaft.

Even back in the late 50 and early 60s, manufacturers were experimenting....
Chrysler with it's free psiton gas turbine.

Much of the groundwork, though, has been laid out by independants.... Smokey
Yunick (God rest his soul - he's kind of a personal hero) spent quite some
time developing his "stratified charge" system... This engine utilized a
turbocharger.. but not as a power adder. It was used to "homogenize" the
intake charge which was, as I recall, a very lean mixture.

When it comes to the internal combustion motor... if you can dream it, there
is probably someone playing with one in his "secret garage". Thanks for
being a captive audience.



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Old 12-17-2005, 18:01   #6 (permalink)
Sharky
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Posts: n/a
Re: New cars run on partial cylinders?

Yeah, one of Chryslers cars is designed to do this, the 300M I believe
(someone correct me if I am wrong). V8 engine designed to run on only 4
cylinders when it needs to. Not sure how it is done. But I've read a few
articles and a buddy who owns one was telling me this.

Sharky


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Old 12-17-2005, 18:01   #7 (permalink)
Puddin' Man
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Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:57:26 -0500, trainfan1
<lmsearing@usdatanet.net> wrote:

>I'm guessing you've never seen a Cadillac V-8-6-4 ?


Cadillac? Cadillac?? Is that one of them companys mounts a
perfectly good V8 transverse and drivin' the front wheels
so's you maybe need to pull the motor to replace some
steering components and hafta wanna destroy yore hands
to work under the hood? :-)

>Well, that came out 25 model years ago... and didn't last very long.


I wonder why? <g>

>Check this overview:
>
>http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features46


Thanks. Shows how out-of-touch I am.

Must admit I didn't necessarily understand it all, but I
suspect it's just semantics. Article said special equipment
caused valves to stay "closed"? I thought a valve was closed
when it was fully seated (which would imply that the new
motors -are- fighting the compression-stroke-without-firing
that I asked about). But that doesn't make any sense (to po'
me, at least).

So ya can't even get a German-MoPar Hemi without the MDS
stuff?

I asked the wrong question.

Here's a new set of questions:

Is anyone presently making substantial and reliable RWD
auto(s) with 1 or more of the following characteristics:

1.) Absence of cylinder deactivation systems.

2.) Iron blocks.

3.) Iron heads.

????

Salut,
Puddin'

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
(Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain.)
-Friedrich Schiller (1759-1805)
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Old 12-17-2005, 21:01   #8 (permalink)
trainfan1
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Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

Puddin' Man wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:57:26 -0500, trainfan1
> <lmsearing@usdatanet.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm guessing you've never seen a Cadillac V-8-6-4 ?

>
>
> Cadillac? Cadillac?? Is that one of them companys mounts a
> perfectly good V8 transverse and drivin' the front wheels
> so's you maybe need to pull the motor to replace some
> steering components and hafta wanna destroy yore hands
> to work under the hood? :-)
>
>
>>Well, that came out 25 model years ago... and didn't last very long.

>
>
> I wonder why? <g>
>
>>Check this overview:
>>
>>http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features46

>
>
> Thanks. Shows how out-of-touch I am.
>
> Must admit I didn't necessarily understand it all, but I
> suspect it's just semantics. Article said special equipment
> caused valves to stay "closed"? I thought a valve was closed
> when it was fully seated (which would imply that the new
> motors -are- fighting the compression-stroke-without-firing
> that I asked about).


Well, on the upstroke, there is compression with the valves closed, but
you get that energy back on the downstroke - "de-compression" - I guess
you would call it.

....or if the valves close on an intake stroke, there is energy used for
"sub-compression" - or vacuum to create in the cylinder - but you get
that back too on the upstroke.

Either way it's a wash.

Rob
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Old 12-18-2005, 04:01   #9 (permalink)
joe schmoe
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Posts: n/a
Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:57:26 -0500, trainfan1
<lmsearing@usdatanet.net> wrote:

>Puddin' Man wrote:
>
>> Re: OT?: New cars run on partial cylinders?
>>
>> I pick up the Sun. paper, read a new car "review", sez
>> the machine (I ferget make/model) is designed to run
>> on partial cylinders (i.e. 4 of 8) when on the hiway
>> and at steady speed for quite a while. "Saves gas."
>>
>> "How Dey Doooooooo Dat???"
>>
>> So I'm thinkin', partial cylinders, fuel injection is
>> computer controlled, it just shuts down injection to, say, 4
>> cyls. But the compression ratio might be something like
>> 7.5/1, and that would make for lots of resistance to
>> effective power train performance with non-firing cyls.
>>
>> I don't spend much time keeping up with new auto technology.
>> Is it possible/conceivable/not-a-nightmare that the valve
>> train could be controlled by the 'puter (and no longer
>> purely mechanical)? For partial cylinders, could it hold
>> 1/more valves open for designated non-running cyls? Does
>> anybody know?
>>
>> Better yet, is anyone in a position to evaluate the
>> potential reliability/long-term dependability headaches
>> that might ensue from such "bleeding-edge technology"?
>>
>> Just curious ... 'scuse my lack on knowledge.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Puddin'

>
>I'm guessing you've never seen a Cadillac V-8-6-4 ?
>
>Well, that came out 25 model years ago... and didn't last very long.
>
>Check this overview:
>
>http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features46
>
>Rob


I have seen exactly two of these early Cadillacs in operation.
The first one was owned by an elderly gentleman who always drove the
car in the typical elderly driver fashion for nearly 15 years. The
computer would adapt to driving style and.... Every few months he
would come back because the car was acting "sluggish". We'd clear
the memory, Take it for a rip up the road at full throttle and (as he
would say) it got it's pep back. ;-) cheap & easy "fix"

The idea was way ahead of the technology. Properly maintained even
the early 4-6-8 Caddy's would operate as designed.. It shouldn't be
too problematic now with better oils and electronics.

The other 4-6-8 Cadillac? It came in for a tune-up. Opened the hood
and saw a rats nest of red wire where someone had "fixed" it.....
Never even attempted to touch that one.

Don't worry about this being "cutting edge" technology. ABS started
life in the 1950's, Airbags were in GM cars in the 1970's the 1930's
Deusenbergs had Superchargers and multi valve engines. 1960's
Corvair's had rear mounted air cooled turbo engines (yes, just like
the 1980's Porsches). Fuel cells? 1800's (look up William Grove or
something like that).

America has made a practice of being ahead of the world. This is what
made America great and continues to make America great. It's just a
shame we can't find a solution for the retiree's so Ford, & GM can
start spending engineering dollars again.

If you're concerned about reliability buy a new one after they've been
out a few years, that way you'll have a warranty and the problems the
vehicles encounter will already be solved by the early adopters.
<grin>.


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Old 12-18-2005, 04:01   #10 (permalink)
tom
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Posts: n/a
Re: New cars run on partial cylinders?

the solenoids were on the top of the valves and would act as a collapsed
lifter on intake stroke keeping the intake valve closed, and keep the
exhaust valve open at all times, making it a "dead" hole. the computer would
limit the amount of gas going into the intake when in this condition. the
problem with this setup was electrical gremlins that would screw it all up,
causing most people to just disconnect the valve circuitry making it a full
time V8
"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:iX2pf.15725$Hl4.2492@clgrps13...
> Not knowing anything about the engine, I can still offer opinions...
>
> I'm unsure of how Cadillac handled the valve train on their old modulated
> displacement effort... I do know there were solenoids mounted under the
> valve covers, but that's about it.
>
> With the current state of the art regarding engine controls, a workable
> modulated displacement engine is getting pretty close to "do-able", though

I
> would have reservations about longevity.
>
> One of the benefits of the much touted 42 volt system (that is always
> promised but never delivered), would be solenoids powerful enough to

operate
> poppet valves (like the intake and exhaust valves in our motors). So, this
> mystery auto maker may have a 42 volt system on the go.... or, they may be
> using techology from HEUI diesel engines. The Ford PowerStroke diesels
> utilize high voltage for injector operation... the old 7.3 works at 115
> volts supplied to the injectors and the 6.0 uses 48 volts to the same end.
>
> There is no end to some of the amazing things that have been tried with

the
> infernal (sp) combustion engine. In the early 80s, Ford had bought the
> rights to the "poly-motor".... built largely of space age plastics, this 4
> cylinder twin overhead cam engine weighed something like 175 pounds and
> delivered (IIRC) 170 horsepower. Ford Motorsports was also hinting of a
> ceramic pistoned 1.6 litre four cylinder.... bragging about (again IIRC)
> 700+ horsepower.
>
> I recall an article on a SAAB engine... I can't recall if the goal was
> modulated displacement or modulated compression ratios. The engine was

built
> similar to the old Offenhauser engines.... the cylinder was cast as part

of
> the head. In the SAAB effort, the position of the cylinder head was raised
> and lowered in relation to the crankshaft.
>
> Even back in the late 50 and early 60s, manufacturers were

experimenting....
> Chrysler with it's free psiton gas turbine.
>
> Much of the groundwork, though, has been laid out by independants....

Smokey
> Yunick (God rest his soul - he's kind of a personal hero) spent quite some
> time developing his "stratified charge" system... This engine utilized a
> turbocharger.. but not as a power adder. It was used to "homogenize" the
> intake charge which was, as I recall, a very lean mixture.
>
> When it comes to the internal combustion motor... if you can dream it,

there
> is probably someone playing with one in his "secret garage". Thanks for
> being a captive audience.
>
>
>



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