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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #1 (permalink)
sleepdog@optonline.net
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Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050601/toyot...tion.html?.v=2

I wonder how this will bode for Ford. I guess it depends if its a
technology issue, Toyota and Ford being the same, or an implementation
issue, Toyota and Ford being different.

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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #2 (permalink)
dold@XReXXToyot.usenet.us.com
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

sleepdog@optonline.net wrote:
> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050601/toyot...tion.html?.v=2


> I wonder how this will bode for Ford. I guess it depends if its a
> technology issue, Toyota and Ford being the same, or an implementation
> issue, Toyota and Ford being different.


The requested document, `/ap/050601/toyota_investigation.html', is no
longer available.


--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #3 (permalink)
Jeff
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed


<sleepdog@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:1117635927.320201.67920@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050601/toyot...tion.html?.v=2
>
> I wonder how this will bode for Ford. I guess it depends if its a
> technology issue, Toyota and Ford being the same, or an implementation
> issue, Toyota and Ford being different.


1) Toyota will fix the problem. If the problem is related to technology for
the hybrid part, they will pass it on to Ford. For example, if it is a
software problem, and the software is used by Ford, they will pass the fix
on. If it is related to a problem that is unique to their engines, knowing
about the fix won't help Ford.

2) The engine will most likely be Ford engine. So probably the problem is
not one that Ford will have.

Jeff


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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #4 (permalink)
Jeff
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed


<dold@XReXXToyot.usenet.us.com> wrote in message
news:d7kj50$pvn$4@blue.rahul.net...
> sleepdog@optonline.net wrote:
>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050601/toyot...tion.html?.v=2

>
>> I wonder how this will bode for Ford. I guess it depends if its a
>> technology issue, Toyota and Ford being the same, or an implementation
>> issue, Toyota and Ford being different.

>
> Ah, here's a copy:
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...s_x.htm?csp=34
> "Government investigating engine stalling in Toyota Prius"
> I would think that the engine and controls are sufficiently different that
> whatever the cause, it is probably not shared with Ford.
>
> Ford licensed technology from Toyota, but may not have used any of it.
> Companies avoid patent infringement if they are designing similar products
> by cross-licensing technology.
>
> From fordvehicles.com:
> "Where did Ford's hybrid technology originate?
> Ford Motor Company designed, developed and validated its own hybrid
> powertrain system In fact, Ford expects more than 100 patents to be issued
> covering this unique Ford hybrid system. "


This doesn't mean that a lot of the technology used is not from Toyota. Only
that they had to do a lot of work to adopt Toyota's technology to their
vehicle.

BTW, if you were Ford, would you emphasize the engineering that you did
that make the Escape unqiue or would you emphasize that you used technology
from someone else?

Jeff
> Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
>



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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #5 (permalink)
Jim Chinnis
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

IleneDover@mailcity.com wrote in part:

>Technically you are both somewhat correct. Ford had a hybrid
>system for the Escape ready to go into procuction in 2003.
>However when Ford bought Volvo they gained Volvos interest in
>newer lower cost hybrid system being developed by a Japanese
>electric company, in partnership with Volvo, Mazda and Toyota.
>When that system was finished Toyota, Ford and Mazda cross
>patented each others designs to avoid licensing fees to each
>other. Toyota bought out the Japanese company, subsequently.
>Ford and Mazda had the larger interest and would have liked to
>buy the company but foreign companies can not own a Japanese
>company. The systems in the Ford and Toyota hybrids use similar
>technology but are not the same
>in design.
>
>Edmund's and others do not advise one buy a hybrid if their only
>goal is to save money on fuel. The premium price will not return
>its investment in the time the average buyer keeps a vehicle. In
>addition the replacement cost of the batteries at some point,
>will cost thousands of dollars wiping out and future saving on
>fuel costs. One source says the premium price alone will buy ALL
>of the fuel for a similar size and powered conventional vehicle
>for four years
>or more at $3 a gallon.


Technically, you are somewhat correct. Edmunds and others may not
be whizzes at economics, however. You are correct that hybrids are
designed to reduce emissions as well as save fuel. But the time an
average buyer keeps a vehicle is irrelevant in the economic
calculation needed to determine whether one swill save by buying a
hybrid. ...as is battery replacement, which should not occur until
well after the battery warranties expire at 100,000 miles.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #6 (permalink)
Jeff
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed


"Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:d9rs91l4k264j8m75rushkbde916vdv7sf@4ax.com...
> IleneDover@mailcity.com wrote in part:
>
>>Technically you are both somewhat correct. Ford had a hybrid
>>system for the Escape ready to go into procuction in 2003.
>>However when Ford bought Volvo they gained Volvos interest in
>>newer lower cost hybrid system being developed by a Japanese
>>electric company, in partnership with Volvo, Mazda and Toyota.
>>When that system was finished Toyota, Ford and Mazda cross
>>patented each others designs to avoid licensing fees to each
>>other. Toyota bought out the Japanese company, subsequently.
>>Ford and Mazda had the larger interest and would have liked to
>>buy the company but foreign companies can not own a Japanese
>>company. The systems in the Ford and Toyota hybrids use similar
>>technology but are not the same
>>in design.
>>
>>Edmund's and others do not advise one buy a hybrid if their only
>>goal is to save money on fuel. The premium price will not return
>>its investment in the time the average buyer keeps a vehicle. In
>>addition the replacement cost of the batteries at some point,
>>will cost thousands of dollars wiping out and future saving on
>>fuel costs. One source says the premium price alone will buy ALL
>>of the fuel for a similar size and powered conventional vehicle
>>for four years
>>or more at $3 a gallon.

>
> Technically, you are somewhat correct. Edmunds and others may not
> be whizzes at economics, however. You are correct that hybrids are
> designed to reduce emissions as well as save fuel. But the time an
> average buyer keeps a vehicle is irrelevant in the economic
> calculation needed to determine whether one swill save by buying a
> hybrid. ...as is battery replacement, which should not occur until
> well after the battery warranties expire at 100,000 miles.


One thing that is not considered is the environmental costs of building a
hybrid, e.g., the extra materials for the motor and especially the
batteries.

Also, the metals in the battery have to be disposed of at some point.

A much better way to save fuel is to get a more fuel-efficent truck or SUV.
If you increase the fuel milage from 10 mpg to 15 mph, you save twice as
much gas as you do when you increase the fuel mileage from 20 to 30 mpg.

Jeff

Jeff
> --
> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA



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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #7 (permalink)
CJB
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

Folks, let me add that one big reason why Jim is a proponent of hybrid
technology may be more simple than it seems. In Northern Virginia, a
single occupant of a Low Emissions Vehicle can use the HOV lanes that are
normally reserved for carpools. That could potentially save Jim a lot of
time on his way into DC on I-66. So many Northern Virginians are buying
hybrids just for this reason that the pilot program allowing them to use the
HOV lanes is about to be cancelled because they're clogging them up.

Of course, if you're going to do a cost/benefit analysis, the time savings,
as well as the fuel savings of not sitting still in traffic, would have to
be included in the formula. If I had a commute of a couple hours each way,
like a lot of folks in our area do, I'd consider a hybrid. It could
potentially save a person 1-2 hours every day.

CJB


"Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:d9rs91l4k264j8m75rushkbde916vdv7sf@4ax.com...
> IleneDover@mailcity.com wrote in part:
>
>>Technically you are both somewhat correct. Ford had a hybrid
>>system for the Escape ready to go into procuction in 2003.
>>However when Ford bought Volvo they gained Volvos interest in
>>newer lower cost hybrid system being developed by a Japanese
>>electric company, in partnership with Volvo, Mazda and Toyota.
>>When that system was finished Toyota, Ford and Mazda cross
>>patented each others designs to avoid licensing fees to each
>>other. Toyota bought out the Japanese company, subsequently.
>>Ford and Mazda had the larger interest and would have liked to
>>buy the company but foreign companies can not own a Japanese
>>company. The systems in the Ford and Toyota hybrids use similar
>>technology but are not the same
>>in design.
>>
>>Edmund's and others do not advise one buy a hybrid if their only
>>goal is to save money on fuel. The premium price will not return
>>its investment in the time the average buyer keeps a vehicle. In
>>addition the replacement cost of the batteries at some point,
>>will cost thousands of dollars wiping out and future saving on
>>fuel costs. One source says the premium price alone will buy ALL
>>of the fuel for a similar size and powered conventional vehicle
>>for four years
>>or more at $3 a gallon.

>
> Technically, you are somewhat correct. Edmunds and others may not
> be whizzes at economics, however. You are correct that hybrids are
> designed to reduce emissions as well as save fuel. But the time an
> average buyer keeps a vehicle is irrelevant in the economic
> calculation needed to determine whether one swill save by buying a
> hybrid. ...as is battery replacement, which should not occur until
> well after the battery warranties expire at 100,000 miles.
> --
> Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA



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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #8 (permalink)
Jim Chinnis
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

"CJB" <colonyparkwagon@excite.nospam> wrote in part:

>Folks, let me add that one big reason why Jim is a proponent of hybrid
>technology may be more simple than it seems. In Northern Virginia, a
>single occupant of a Low Emissions Vehicle can use the HOV lanes that are
>normally reserved for carpools. That could potentially save Jim a lot of
>time on his way into DC on I-66. So many Northern Virginians are buying
>hybrids just for this reason that the pilot program allowing them to use the
>HOV lanes is about to be cancelled because they're clogging them up.
>
>Of course, if you're going to do a cost/benefit analysis, the time savings,
>as well as the fuel savings of not sitting still in traffic, would have to
>be included in the formula. If I had a commute of a couple hours each way,
>like a lot of folks in our area do, I'd consider a hybrid. It could
>potentially save a person 1-2 hours every day.
>
>CJB


Nice thought, but wrong. The Escape Hybrid doesn't qualify for the
special plates, or so I was told. And I *never* take I-66 into DC.
I work in Warrenton.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #9 (permalink)
Jim Chinnis
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

>
>"Jim Chinnis" <jchinnis@SPAMalum.mit.edu> wrote in message
>news:cm8u9113h3ojicbvvq6evbl6md3umn79ev@4ax.com...
>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

>(...)
>
>>>One thing that is not considered is the environmental costs of building a
>>>hybrid, e.g., the extra materials for the motor and especially the
>>>batteries.

>>
>> People have done such analyses, coming up with figures for various
>> types of environmental harm from the total "cradle-to-grave"
>> system.
>>
>> What I've seen is very favorable for hybrids. The batteries are
>> completely non-toxic. You could grind 'em up and make playground
>> equipment out of 'em.

>
>That's good. Of course, you have to look at the cost of getting the nickel
>out of the ground, too.


That's part of the $3000 premium.

>>>Also, the metals in the battery have to be disposed of at some point.
>>>
>>>A much better way to save fuel is to get a more fuel-efficent truck or
>>>SUV.
>>>If you increase the fuel milage from 10 mpg to 15 mph, you save twice as
>>>much gas as you do when you increase the fuel mileage from 20 to 30 mpg.

>>
>> Not sure I follow. If you mean that people are wasteful and buy
>> big trucks for the hell of it--yeah, some do. Tax and regulatory
>> pressures can maybe address some of that.

>
>Unless you make illegal for someone with money to buy a big SUV, they will.


Sure. They also have huge homes with fireplaces going while the
air conditioning runs.

>> If you mean that it would be better to build hybrid versions of
>> large SUVs and trucks, I agree.

>
>Although I agree that it is better to have hybrid versions of an SUV, I
>meant that one would save more gas by going from a big SUV to a small one
>than from a small gas car to a more efficient one (which is what a hybrid
>is).


That's the earlier point. People choose bigger vehicles for the
image sometimes. For safety. For hauling big loads. Some choices
are optional and some aren't.

>> I think some of the emphasis on
>> relatively small vehicles for hybrid platforms has been due to the
>> greater willingness of individuals to pay for lower emissions.

>
>Plus it is easier to build a small hybrid than a big one, because you need
>smaller motors and batteries although NYC does have some hybrid buses. NYC
>is able to usedeisel hybrid instead of compterss natural gas, because the
>exhaust is so clean.


I don't think Ford would have any problem builder bigger stuff...

>> Part of producing lower emissions is using as small a vehicle as
>> possible. Businesses don't have the same latitude, unfortunately.
>> Unless there is an economic advantage to hybrids in the pattern of
>> use they require, they aren't likely to buy.
>>
>> If you look at savings in business applications where the vehicle
>> racks up lots of miles fast, the current hybrid technology pays
>> for itself very quickly. Even at current low US fuel prices, a
>> diesel-electric hybrid in a big rig could probably pay for itself
>> quickly if the vehicle is in heavy use. I imagine there will be
>> some introduced, especially if fuel prices rise.

>
>This is true only for vehicles that stop and start a lot, like buses in
>cities. For long haul trucks, I don't think you save nearly as much. (I
>could be wrong.) For the Ford Escape, you go from 25 mpg to 29 mpg, only a
>16% gain, compared with going from 22 to about 33 mpg, a 50% gain.


The biggest payoff is in varied-load driving. A long, flat highway
trip doesn't benefit much from the hybrid.

>For big trucks, I would suspect that the gain would be even lower, as a
>percentage, on the highway. Of course, trucks do stop at truck stops and go
>into cities to make deliveries, so that they would save money.
>
>However, if a truck got a 5% gain, and the gain cost $10,000 (meaning about
>5000 gal of deisel), then, assuming 6 mpg, you will burn about 170 gals /
>1000 miles. That would save about $17 / 1000 miles. That would take about
>600,000 miles to get the money back.


Even with your 5% assumption, that could be just two years on a
long-haul truck. (But I don't think long-haul trucks are a likely
target for hybrid technology!)

>However, I would imagine that if it costs $3000 for a escape hybrid system,
>it would cost more that 3.3 times more for a truck hybrid system.


Certainly.

>Considering that truck motors last more 1,000,000 mi, it seems reasonable
>that one could save money by using a hybrid in a tractor trailer.


Dunno.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02   #10 (permalink)
MarkSherman@_______.com
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Re: Toyota Prius Being Investigated by the Fed

How dare you use the "Toy" word in a Ford forum !!!!!
alt.autos.ford is where we talk about REAL cars, not toys.

On 1 Jun 2005 07:25:27 -0700, sleepdog@optonline.net wrote:

>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050601/toyot...tion.html?.v=2
>
>I wonder how this will bode for Ford. I guess it depends if its a
>technology issue, Toyota and Ford being the same, or an implementation
>issue, Toyota and Ford being different.


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