1965 289 starting problem - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
Ford Forum Ford Forum

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
ยป Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars > Fordforums Community > USENET NewsGroups > rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Register Home Forum Active Topics Photo Gallery Auto Loans Garage Mark Forums Read Auto Escrow

FordForums.com is the premier Ford Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-08-2005, 15:01   #1 (permalink)
avriette@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
1965 289 starting problem

A friend of mine has a 65 mustang that was built by an unknown builder
in New York. He bought it off a lot, so he doens't know much about the
parts in it. It seems pretty straight forward, with a mostly bare
engine bay. It has a 289 V8 in it with "cobra" valve covers. Forgive me
if I'm not 100% on identifying the heritage of the car, I'm normally a
Nissan L6 guy, but I'm helping the friend out since I'm a lot more
mechanically inclined than he is.

The problems he is having with it started after he let it sit outside
for a few weeks. The weather has been alternating thunderstorms and
90-100F for the duration.

Initially he told me that he had a coolant leak. I had a look, and the
gasket on the thermostat housing towards the bottom (water pump side)
was leaking. I replaced that without issue. At this point (before the
r&r gasket was done), we tried to turn the motor over. It was a little
sluggish, and turned a little, making a loud buzzing or clicking noise.
It did not start. I suspect it is kind of a high compression motor
because in the past, it starts sort of hard, but it really starts when
it takes. The car has glasspacks, and as far as I can tell, no muffler
or cat, and 4-1 headers with 3" collectors.

After the gasket was replaced, we waited 24 hours for the RTV to cure,
and went to start the car. At this point it would not turn at all, but
was still making the buzzing/clicking noise. We attempted to jump the
car, and still got no turnover.

The car is not possessed of a voltmeter (wtf?). The lights and other
accessories work. At this point, I am thinking that it is the starter,
but since the car is sitting at a parking lot on base, I don't want to
go replacing the starter, putting it on a jack, etc, if I am not 100%
it is the starter.

For what it's worth, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and can do the swap
myself, but I'm unfamiliar with this vintage and brand of car.

If you could email-cc me, that would be super.

Thanks,
alex

  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-08-2005, 15:01   #2 (permalink)
Backyard Mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem


I see the point.. elaborate troll, tiring of making up urban Katrina
legends.

"I'm ASE certified.. but only passed because I have a photographic memory"

Evidently.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 16:01   #3 (permalink)
avriette@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

Wow, that's reaching. I'm not trolling. I've been very active on the
IZCC (http://zhome.com/) mailing list in the past. I just work on
computers for a living now. I took the ASE exams in college, back in
1998. At the time I owned a fuel injected four cylinder, and a fuel
injected six cylinder. If you're familiar at all with the exams, you'll
understand that you don't need to know everything about everything to
pass them. I took and passed A1 and A8, with the hope of getting a smog
tech certification. That's automotive engine performance and
chassis/suspension/brakes. What's getting me is that the technology is
substantially larger, louder, and older than anything I have in my two
vehicles (a 1982 Nissan and a 1999 Buick). I'm just asking for a
consensus diagnosis on the starter.

Don't get your knickers in a wad. I realize there's been a lot of
trolling recently, I read the newsgroup before posting. I'm just a
regular guy who happened to ask a question on a damn newsgroup.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 16:01   #4 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

avriette@gmail.com wrote:
> A friend of mine has a 65 mustang that was built by an unknown builder
> in New York. He bought it off a lot, so he doens't know much about the
> parts in it. It seems pretty straight forward, with a mostly bare
> engine bay. It has a 289 V8 in it with "cobra" valve covers.


Those are available as a dress-up kit. They usually don't indicate
anything.

Forgive me
> if I'm not 100% on identifying the heritage of the car, I'm normally a
> Nissan L6 guy, but I'm helping the friend out since I'm a lot more
> mechanically inclined than he is.
>
> The problems he is having with it started after he let it sit outside
> for a few weeks. The weather has been alternating thunderstorms and
> 90-100F for the duration.
>
> Initially he told me that he had a coolant leak. I had a look, and the
> gasket on the thermostat housing towards the bottom (water pump side)
> was leaking. I replaced that without issue. At this point (before the
> r&r gasket was done), we tried to turn the motor over. It was a little
> sluggish, and turned a little, making a loud buzzing or clicking noise.
> It did not start. I suspect it is kind of a high compression motor
> because in the past, it starts sort of hard, but it really starts when
> it takes. The car has glasspacks, and as far as I can tell, no muffler
> or cat, and 4-1 headers with 3" collectors.


It would be impossible to say without a compression test compared to
some original specs. How about voltage at the battery while running?
What is the amp rating of the battery? If it didn't have a starter that
was up to snuff, and it had enough compression, you might be right about
that. The solenoid is cheap; replace it. Check the basics first.
Check the starting and ignition circuits for obvious faults. Check the
ground strap. Replace the voltage regulator as well, they're cheap,
too. These circuits are prone to failure. Make sure everything is
clean and bright and no arcing is going on.

>
> After the gasket was replaced, we waited 24 hours for the RTV to cure,
> and went to start the car. At this point it would not turn at all, but
> was still making the buzzing/clicking noise. We attempted to jump the
> car, and still got no turnover.
>
> The car is not possessed of a voltmeter (wtf?).


They came with ammeters. You'll have to use an external voltmeter or
install one.

The lights and other
> accessories work. At this point, I am thinking that it is the starter,
> but since the car is sitting at a parking lot on base, I don't want to
> go replacing the starter, putting it on a jack, etc, if I am not 100%
> it is the starter.


Check the other things first.

>
> For what it's worth, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and can do the swap
> myself, but I'm unfamiliar with this vintage and brand of car.
>


Sort of out of practice, no? Regardless, just look at the things
responsible for starting it. Cap, rotor, plug wires, points, dizz, pull
a plug or two, etc. Assume nothing with a 40-year-old car.

> If you could email-cc me, that would be super.


I don't do that. Just check back here.

>
> Thanks,
> alex
>



--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 17:01   #5 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

> Don't get your knickers in a wad. I realize there's been a lot of
> trolling recently, I read the newsgroup before posting. I'm just a
> regular guy who happened to ask a question on a damn newsgroup.


You see, this is why effective troll control, and the other measures
mentioned (most excellently by Jafo) must be in place to ensure the
survival of hobbyist newsgroups. Everyone gets edgy and pissy. People
are presumed guilty of being liars when they just might not be.

Consider, for a moment, that this person is honest. Then decide after a
few exchanges whether or not you want to talk to them. It's just that
simple.

I took C in college (the language), but I couldn't write you a function
stub if you had a gun to my head. OTOH, I can still recite lines of
Sartre's plays, with completely correct grammar, from memory. People's
minds work differently.


--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 18:01   #6 (permalink)
Jim Warman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

While a photographic memory may be a plus, to be a tech, you neeed the skill
to diagnose problems in a logical fashion and to base your next step on the
results of the previous step. Possessing a certificate means nothing if we
can't back that up with knowledge. Would you listen to a doctor that is
unfamiliar with the human body but passed because he/she has a photographic
memory.

I would suggest that you possess "dime store" jumper cables that can't carry
the required current (that you state that the lights work fine shows that
you have little understanding of current requirements for the starting
system). It may sound harsh but I can only suggest that both you and friend
may be better served if you help him find a real tech and then take him for
a beer.

If you're still game to try diagnosing and repairing this..... Electricity
works the same in a new Honda as it does in a 40 year old Ford.... Purchase
a good quality DMM and learn to use it correctly. Without this step, you
will be doomed to asking questions in NGs.


  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 19:01   #7 (permalink)
Backyard Mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

avriette@gmail.com wrote in news:1126216254.615255.13150
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:



> Don't get your knickers in a wad. I realize there's been a lot of
> trolling recently, I read the newsgroup before posting. I'm just a
> regular guy who happened to ask a question on a damn newsgroup.
>
>


my apologies, then... and good for you in taking the tests as a civilian.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 19:01   #8 (permalink)
avriette@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

Jim, thanks for your concern.

I've replaced the starter on several cars, alternators, air
conditioning, fuel injectors, intake and exhaust manifolds,
turbochargers, et cetera, in addition to doing all the normal
maintenance. I'm quite capable of doing this.

It may surprise you that not everyone carries a great set of jumper
cables in their back pocket. In fact, I have a set in my Z, but I was
asked to go look at this friends car today. I brought a small toolchest
and my leatherman. I wasn't the one who jumped the car, it was said
friend and a coworker. I'm just relaying the information, as I said, to
get a consensus diagnosis.

Furthermore, we are talking about a starter here, not an airbag, or
brakes, or anything else crucial. The comparison to a medical doctor is
something of a logical fallacy. Working on otto-cycle engines is a lot
like riding a bike, to use the adage. That having been said, if you
look at the starter for a 1982 280ZX, and the starter that's on that
289, they're very different units. The wiring from the battery to the
starter is different. Everything's located in a different place. And,
it's been at least six years since I had a car on jackstands. I've done
a lot of preventative maintenance for friends.

The only reason being "doomed" to ask questions in a newsgroup is doom
at all is people like yourself bite the heads off people with honest
questions. And, before you start, don't give me some song and dance
about there being trolls afoot. You may have heard the expression,
"don't feed the trolls." Well, the idea here is that trolls aim to make
the internet a less pleasant place for their own amusement. To go and
kick every newcomer in the teeth is to let them have your newsgroup.

I was more than polite in my original question, and even went the extra
step of saying that I realized there had been trolling, and qualifying
my original question after I was accused of trolling.

This ad hominem stuff is for children and people who don't understand
that this is a community. I'm frankly shocked at how unfriendly the two
of you were. I've never experienced that in the other automotive
communities I've participated in (which, for the sake of not starting a
brand argument, I won't mention).

I will dredge up my larger toolbox, get the voltmeter from it, suggest
the owner buy a Haynes manual if he wants me to work on his car, and go
perform a proper jump with a proper set of cables.

Thank you, "Wound Up," for your input. I'll see what I can find out, if
I can fix the problem, and post a summary if I can.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 19:01   #9 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

avriette@gmail.com wrote:
> Jim, thanks for your concern.
>
> I've replaced the starter on several cars, alternators, air
> conditioning, fuel injectors, intake and exhaust manifolds,
> turbochargers, et cetera, in addition to doing all the normal
> maintenance. I'm quite capable of doing this.
>
> It may surprise you that not everyone carries a great set of jumper
> cables in their back pocket. In fact, I have a set in my Z, but I was
> asked to go look at this friends car today. I brought a small toolchest
> and my leatherman. I wasn't the one who jumped the car, it was said
> friend and a coworker. I'm just relaying the information, as I said, to
> get a consensus diagnosis.
>
> Furthermore, we are talking about a starter here, not an airbag, or
> brakes, or anything else crucial. The comparison to a medical doctor is
> something of a logical fallacy. Working on otto-cycle engines is a lot
> like riding a bike, to use the adage. That having been said, if you
> look at the starter for a 1982 280ZX, and the starter that's on that
> 289, they're very different units. The wiring from the battery to the
> starter is different. Everything's located in a different place. And,
> it's been at least six years since I had a car on jackstands. I've done
> a lot of preventative maintenance for friends.
>
> The only reason being "doomed" to ask questions in a newsgroup is doom
> at all is people like yourself bite the heads off people with honest
> questions. And, before you start, don't give me some song and dance
> about there being trolls afoot. You may have heard the expression,
> "don't feed the trolls." Well, the idea here is that trolls aim to make
> the internet a less pleasant place for their own amusement. To go and
> kick every newcomer in the teeth is to let them have your newsgroup.
>
> I was more than polite in my original question, and even went the extra
> step of saying that I realized there had been trolling, and qualifying
> my original question after I was accused of trolling.
>
> This ad hominem stuff is for children and people who don't understand
> that this is a community. I'm frankly shocked at how unfriendly the two
> of you were. I've never experienced that in the other automotive
> communities I've participated in (which, for the sake of not starting a
> brand argument, I won't mention).
>
> I will dredge up my larger toolbox, get the voltmeter from it, suggest
> the owner buy a Haynes manual if he wants me to work on his car, and go
> perform a proper jump with a proper set of cables.
>
> Thank you, "Wound Up," for your input. I'll see what I can find out, if
> I can fix the problem, and post a summary if I can.


Not a problem. It should be a simple process of elimination, because if
it ran to begin with, things were in the ballpark.

That said, keep in mind that these old small blocks will run with stuff
fairly far off spec compared to what you've spent most of your time
with. Tweaks will likely be necessary. One 289 of mine ran ok when I
had the distributor off a tooth on the advance side, and as I recall,
there are only eight teeth. "Where are the timing marks? Oh... way
down there..."

I'd replace the points with a Pertronix Ignitor as soon as you get it
running reliably ($79, 15 min., never mess with the points again).

Best of luck with it.

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2005, 20:01   #10 (permalink)
chip
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1965 289 starting problem

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:56:31 GMT, Wound Up <none@your.disposal.ask.me>
wrote:

>avriette@gmail.com wrote:
>> A friend of mine has a 65 mustang that was built by an unknown builder
>> in New York. He bought it off a lot, so he doens't know much about the
>> parts in it. It seems pretty straight forward, with a mostly bare
>> engine bay. It has a 289 V8 in it with "cobra" valve covers.

>
>Those are available as a dress-up kit. They usually don't indicate
>anything.
>
>Forgive me
>> if I'm not 100% on identifying the heritage of the car, I'm normally a
>> Nissan L6 guy, but I'm helping the friend out since I'm a lot more
>> mechanically inclined than he is.
>>
>> The problems he is having with it started after he let it sit outside
>> for a few weeks. The weather has been alternating thunderstorms and
>> 90-100F for the duration.
>>
>> Initially he told me that he had a coolant leak. I had a look, and the
>> gasket on the thermostat housing towards the bottom (water pump side)
>> was leaking. I replaced that without issue. At this point (before the
>> r&r gasket was done), we tried to turn the motor over. It was a little
>> sluggish, and turned a little, making a loud buzzing or clicking noise.
>> It did not start. I suspect it is kind of a high compression motor
>> because in the past, it starts sort of hard, but it really starts when
>> it takes. The car has glasspacks, and as far as I can tell, no muffler
>> or cat, and 4-1 headers with 3" collectors.

>
>It would be impossible to say without a compression test compared to
>some original specs. How about voltage at the battery while running?
>What is the amp rating of the battery? If it didn't have a starter that
>was up to snuff, and it had enough compression, you might be right about
>that. The solenoid is cheap; replace it. Check the basics first.
>Check the starting and ignition circuits for obvious faults. Check the
>ground strap. Replace the voltage regulator as well, they're cheap,
>too. These circuits are prone to failure. Make sure everything is
>clean and bright and no arcing is going on.
>
>>
>> After the gasket was replaced, we waited 24 hours for the RTV to cure,
>> and went to start the car. At this point it would not turn at all, but
>> was still making the buzzing/clicking noise. We attempted to jump the
>> car, and still got no turnover.
>>
>> The car is not possessed of a voltmeter (wtf?).

>
>They came with ammeters. You'll have to use an external voltmeter or
>install one.
>



they did??? my 65 has an idiot light, only 65 gt's came with meters.
>The lights and other
>> accessories work. At this point, I am thinking that it is the starter,
>> but since the car is sitting at a parking lot on base, I don't want to
>> go replacing the starter, putting it on a jack, etc, if I am not 100%
>> it is the starter.

>
>Check the other things first.
>
>>
>> For what it's worth, I'm an ASE certified mechanic and can do the swap
>> myself, but I'm unfamiliar with this vintage and brand of car.
>>

>
>Sort of out of practice, no? Regardless, just look at the things
>responsible for starting it. Cap, rotor, plug wires, points, dizz, pull
>a plug or two, etc. Assume nothing with a 40-year-old car.
>
>> If you could email-cc me, that would be super.

>
>I don't do that. Just check back here.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> alex
>>





try a solenoid first, your description exactly matches this.
And the ASE stuff, I don't believe in it either although I am ASE
master certified and Honda Platinum certified. That's all just paper
though.
Chip
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars > Fordforums Community > USENET NewsGroups > rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:49.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.