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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #1 (permalink)
RichA
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Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid
fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at
Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

Pimentel and Tad W. Patzek, professor of civil and environmental
engineering at Berkeley, conducted a detailed analysis of the energy
input-yield ratios of producing ethanol from corn, switch grass and
wood biomass as well as for producing biodiesel from soybean and
sunflower plants. Their report is published in Natural Resources
Research (Vol. 14:1, 65-76).

In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol
production, the study found that:

-- corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
-- switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced; and
-- wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel
production, the study found that:

-- soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel
produced, and
-- sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the
fuel produced.

In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the
energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides
and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and
transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from
the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal
and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs
associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures
were not included in the analysis.

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil
in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or
biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you
use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the
combustion of these products."

Although Pimentel advocates the use of burning biomass to produce
thermal energy (to heat homes, for example), he deplores the use of
biomass for liquid fuel. "The government spends more than $3 billion a
year to subsidize ethanol production when it does not provide a net
energy balance or gain, is not a renewable energy source or an
economical fuel. Further, its production and use contribute to air,
water and soil pollution and global warming," Pimentel says. He points
out that the vast majority of the subsidies do not go to farmers but
to large ethanol-producing corporations.

"Ethanol production in the United States does not benefit the nation's
energy security, its agriculture, economy or the environment," says
Pimentel. "Ethanol production requires large fossil energy input, and
therefore, it is contributing to oil and natural gas imports and U.S.
deficits." He says the country should instead focus its efforts on
producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and
burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion.

Source: Cornell University
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #2 (permalink)
RichA
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...

Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
Canada.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #3 (permalink)
Richard
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames


"RichA" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:np6pc1d61blgldrnueb1kcnv2s2k002jj9@4ax.com...
> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>
> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
> Canada.


What do you expect from a morally and ethically bankrupt government? That's
the problem of over taxation (read huge budget surpluses), they become the
government's "buy votes" slush fund.

--
Richard

'94 GT 'vert
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #4 (permalink)
RichA
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:35:37 GMT, "Richard" <r-manders@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>"RichA" <none@none.com> wrote in message
>news:np6pc1d61blgldrnueb1kcnv2s2k002jj9@4ax.com...
>> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>>
>> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
>> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
>> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
>> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
>> Canada.

>
>What do you expect from a morally and ethically bankrupt government? That's
>the problem of over taxation (read huge budget surpluses), they become the
>government's "buy votes" slush fund.


So I emailed the study to him (Mitchell). I'm SURE he'll read it and
act according.

andymp@muskoka.com
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #5 (permalink)
pawn
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

RichA wrote:

> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>
> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
> Canada.



I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's
of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is
alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best
fuel source (I don't).

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Old 07-07-2005, 01:02   #6 (permalink)
RichA
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn <pawn@porterhouse.com> wrote:

>RichA wrote:
>
>> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>>
>> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
>> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
>> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
>> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
>> Canada.

>
>
>I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's
>of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is
>alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best
>fuel source (I don't).


How about a plutonium battery powered steam-driven car?

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Old 07-07-2005, 13:02   #7 (permalink)
Spike
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

It may not be the best source.... but it's the best source readily
available right now.

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn <pawn@porterhouse.com> wrote:

>RichA wrote:
>
>> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>>
>> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
>> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
>> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
>> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
>> Canada.

>
>
>I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's
>of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is
>alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best
>fuel source (I don't).


Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
-JFK Inaugural Address
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Old 07-07-2005, 13:02   #8 (permalink)
Spike
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Posts: n/a
Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

And perhaps every vehicle could be used as a weapon by terrorists? You
left out the solar/wind subsystems. Might as well call Fred
Flintstone. It seems possible that in the post apocalyptic world,
after the energy wars have died down, we'll be back to animal power
and walking.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:34:14 -0400, RichA <none@none.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:40:33 -0400, pawn <pawn@porterhouse.com> wrote:
>
>>RichA wrote:
>>
>>> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>>>
>>> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
>>> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
>>> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
>>> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
>>> Canada.

>>
>>
>>I wouldn't worry about it, the real money, and we're talking about 10's
>>of billions, is being invested by the private sector in Alberta. Oil is
>>alive and well, and will be for many decades, if you feel it's the best
>>fuel source (I don't).

>
>How about a plutonium battery powered steam-driven car?


Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.

"When the time comes to lay down my life for my country,
I do not cower from this responsibility. I welcome it."
-JFK Inaugural Address
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Old 07-08-2005, 15:03   #9 (permalink)
cprice@here.com
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Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames


Its very likely that there is not one single replacement for
dino-juice. Dino, bio, hydrogen, natrual gas, hybrid, eletric, etc will
all have their role to play once Oil hits $100 a barrel (which at the
rate we're going could be in two years, but more like 10-20).



RichA wrote:

> And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
>
> Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
> announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
> across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
> and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
> Canada.

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Old 07-08-2005, 15:03   #10 (permalink)
Jimmy
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Posts: n/a
Re: Another "alternate fuel" shot down in flames

Or there is no crisis at all. And no need for replacement.

It's like housing. Speculation is driving the prices. Remember when Yahoo
was a "bargain" stock at 100 bucks per share? Or Cisco? Irrationality is
driving up prices....just like the irrationality in housing prices.

First off, yes there ARE alternatives to "dino" juice. Thermal
Depolymerization. Bio Diesel. Methane Hydrates. And biodiesel enthusiasts
are as hard core as any mustang enthusast, even home brewing thier own fuel.

There is even debate as to the origin of petroleum itself. Whether the earth
produces petroleum naturally, versus a fossil/aging process. It's called
abiotic oil aka the "Russian-Ukranian Theory of Petroleum Genesis",
developed by (gasp!) Soviet petroleum engineers.

In the early 1970's we were "running out of oil" and the earth was headed
cataclysmically into an Ice Age. Now, we're "running out of oil" and we're
headed for "global warming". Interesting how over 30 years the theorys
change, but the hysteria remains.

Too bad TtT ain't here any more (you old timers know who I mean) as I
believe he was/is a petroleum engineer and might be able to add light to the
subject.

And as far as adding carbon to the atmosphere and the hysterics about global
warming, when the weather service, the NOAA or whomever can get the weather
right for 10 days in a row, I'll believe the climate models for 100+ years.
Othersiws I gotta pull my skeptic card and say "proove it".


<cprice@here.com> wrote in message news:42CEC2D5.9090603@here.com...
>
> Its very likely that there is not one single replacement for
> dino-juice. Dino, bio, hydrogen, natrual gas, hybrid, eletric, etc will
> all have their role to play once Oil hits $100 a barrel (which at the
> rate we're going could be in two years, but more like 10-20).
>
>
>
> RichA wrote:
>
> > And of course Canada's idiots in government go and...
> >
> > Ethanol production received a boost today as the Government of Canada
> > announced a further $46 million to build or expand five ethanol plants
> > across Canada. The successful companies were announced by Agriculture
> > and Agri-Food Minister Andy Mitchell on behalf of the Government of
> > Canada.



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