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Old 09-05-2005, 14:01   #1 (permalink)
NoOption5L@aol.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members

CobraJet wrote:

> It's nice to see some 20-odd people reply to the Roll Call. However,
> it seems everyone is just waiting for someone else to post first.


I never understood this thinking... folks complaining that things are
dead, yet they're reluctant to post anything. It's like someone
thinking the conversation at a party sucks, while *they* are sitting in
a back corner with their mouth shut the whole time.

> People, take a look through the list of other alt.-hierarchy auto
> groups. The number of them that are now totally abandoned is
> considerable. Unless some of you take the initiative to create more
> talk, we will join their ranks.


Yep, a NG only lives because of consistent contributions by its
members.

> I am no longer of the mindset to flog this group into shape by myself. Matter > of fact, I have back-shelved personal auto endeavors until I'm done building > things around here.


He flogs; I massage.

> I'm not alone in this concern. Patrick in RAMFM has expressed
> concern over the steady decline in quality on-topic banter. Even the
> proliferation of "tech" questions by the same confused individual under
> a multitude of different nyms is not going to help them or us.


He's calls me a confused individual... that's okay... I swiped him
earlier with the term stupid.

> I know Patrick tries hard, but sooner or later he has to realize it can't be > a one-man show.


Thanks, I do try hard. But I've never thought of myself as a one-man
show. I've only tried to do my part, and hoped others would do theirs.


> One person here needs to take charge and field suggestions for
> keeping this group alive.


I see it a little differently. Again, it isn't a one-person job. No
one person can do it. It takes everyone who reads the NG to keep it
alive.

> It won't be me. If things pick up consistently, I may participate as time
> permits. Otherwise, I may "see" some of you Webside next year.


My NG contributions will soon end. I will be checking out later this
week. I may be back sometime next year. I am a little concerned
when/if I do come back that there may not be anything to come back to.
So here's a thought I will leave with the remaining regulars of both
newsgroups: Between the two newsgroups there is a considerable amount
of talent and dedication, at least enough to keep one group alive and
thriving. So I think it may be time to merge the two groups/and their
regulars back together. Before anyone says this is blasphemy, let me
remind you that this particular asshole will not be around to muck
things up. Let me repeat this, *I* will *not* be around, *at all*. So
if I was the, or a, reason you left RAMFM to start AHPBBFM (which is
probably 90% of the AHPBBFM members), you can take me out of your
equation. The current equation being: is it better to be member of a
thriving NG, or to one that limps along? Now some of you are probably
thinking what happens "when/if" Patrick comes back. I will tell you
this. I know the errors of my past. If I come back, I'll will extend
the olive branch and will be mellowed out. Yes, this will probably be
hard for me to do, but *I promise* I will be diplomatic for the sake of
a continued existence in our little corner of Usenet. Now some of you
might be thinking this is game, a ploy, or a load of BS, but let me
assure you it is not. I do not play games. This is not a ploy. I do
not BS. And I do not troll (like some others do). I will be replying
a few more times in RAMFM, I will send out a final post, and then I
will be gone. It's just a thought, but I think the time has come...
can you all come together...? The decision is yours...

Patrick
'93 Cobra

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Old 09-05-2005, 19:01   #2 (permalink)
SVTKate
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members

Sooooo...
whatcha gonna do huh huh????
Where ya gonna go huh huh????
I WANNA GO!!!!!

Oh yea. maybe I won't be able to, not having a feeeord any more.


<NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125946388.985552.274760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
: CobraJet wrote:
:
: > It's nice to see some 20-odd people reply to the Roll Call. However,
: > it seems everyone is just waiting for someone else to post first.
:
: I never understood this thinking... folks complaining that things are
: dead, yet they're reluctant to post anything. It's like someone
: thinking the conversation at a party sucks, while *they* are sitting in
: a back corner with their mouth shut the whole time.
:
: > People, take a look through the list of other alt.-hierarchy auto
: > groups. The number of them that are now totally abandoned is
: > considerable. Unless some of you take the initiative to create more
: > talk, we will join their ranks.
:
: Yep, a NG only lives because of consistent contributions by its
: members.
:
: > I am no longer of the mindset to flog this group into shape by myself.
Matter > of fact, I have back-shelved personal auto endeavors until I'm done
building > things around here.
:
: He flogs; I massage.
:
: > I'm not alone in this concern. Patrick in RAMFM has expressed
: > concern over the steady decline in quality on-topic banter. Even the
: > proliferation of "tech" questions by the same confused individual under
: > a multitude of different nyms is not going to help them or us.
:
: He's calls me a confused individual... that's okay... I swiped him
: earlier with the term stupid.
:
: > I know Patrick tries hard, but sooner or later he has to realize it
can't be > a one-man show.
:
: Thanks, I do try hard. But I've never thought of myself as a one-man
: show. I've only tried to do my part, and hoped others would do theirs.
:
:
: > One person here needs to take charge and field suggestions for
: > keeping this group alive.
:
: I see it a little differently. Again, it isn't a one-person job. No
: one person can do it. It takes everyone who reads the NG to keep it
: alive.
:
: > It won't be me. If things pick up consistently, I may participate as
time
: > permits. Otherwise, I may "see" some of you Webside next year.
:
: My NG contributions will soon end. I will be checking out later this
: week. I may be back sometime next year. I am a little concerned
: when/if I do come back that there may not be anything to come back to.
: So here's a thought I will leave with the remaining regulars of both
: newsgroups: Between the two newsgroups there is a considerable amount
: of talent and dedication, at least enough to keep one group alive and
: thriving. So I think it may be time to merge the two groups/and their
: regulars back together. Before anyone says this is blasphemy, let me
: remind you that this particular asshole will not be around to muck
: things up. Let me repeat this, *I* will *not* be around, *at all*. So
: if I was the, or a, reason you left RAMFM to start AHPBBFM (which is
: probably 90% of the AHPBBFM members), you can take me out of your
: equation. The current equation being: is it better to be member of a
: thriving NG, or to one that limps along? Now some of you are probably
: thinking what happens "when/if" Patrick comes back. I will tell you
: this. I know the errors of my past. If I come back, I'll will extend
: the olive branch and will be mellowed out. Yes, this will probably be
: hard for me to do, but *I promise* I will be diplomatic for the sake of
: a continued existence in our little corner of Usenet. Now some of you
: might be thinking this is game, a ploy, or a load of BS, but let me
: assure you it is not. I do not play games. This is not a ploy. I do
: not BS. And I do not troll (like some others do). I will be replying
: a few more times in RAMFM, I will send out a final post, and then I
: will be gone. It's just a thought, but I think the time has come...
: can you all come together...? The decision is yours...
:
: Patrick
: '93 Cobra
:


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Old 09-05-2005, 22:01   #3 (permalink)
Jafo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members

<NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125946388.985552.274760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> CobraJet wrote:
>
> > It's nice to see some 20-odd people reply to the Roll Call. However,
> > it seems everyone is just waiting for someone else to post first.

>
> I never understood this thinking... folks complaining that things are
> dead, yet they're reluctant to post anything. It's like someone
> thinking the conversation at a party sucks, while *they* are sitting in
> a back corner with their mouth shut the whole time.
>
> > People, take a look through the list of other alt.-hierarchy auto
> > groups. The number of them that are now totally abandoned is
> > considerable. Unless some of you take the initiative to create more
> > talk, we will join their ranks.

>
> Yep, a NG only lives because of consistent contributions by its
> members.
>
> > I am no longer of the mindset to flog this group into shape by myself.

Matter > of fact, I have back-shelved personal auto endeavors until I'm done
building > things around here.
>
> He flogs; I massage.
>
> > I'm not alone in this concern. Patrick in RAMFM has expressed
> > concern over the steady decline in quality on-topic banter. Even the
> > proliferation of "tech" questions by the same confused individual under
> > a multitude of different nyms is not going to help them or us.

>
> He's calls me a confused individual... that's okay... I swiped him
> earlier with the term stupid.
>
> > I know Patrick tries hard, but sooner or later he has to realize it

can't be > a one-man show.
>
> Thanks, I do try hard. But I've never thought of myself as a one-man
> show. I've only tried to do my part, and hoped others would do theirs.
>
>
> > One person here needs to take charge and field suggestions for
> > keeping this group alive.

>
> I see it a little differently. Again, it isn't a one-person job. No
> one person can do it. It takes everyone who reads the NG to keep it
> alive.
>
> > It won't be me. If things pick up consistently, I may participate as

time
> > permits. Otherwise, I may "see" some of you Webside next year.

>
> My NG contributions will soon end. I will be checking out later this
> week. I may be back sometime next year. I am a little concerned
> when/if I do come back that there may not be anything to come back to.
> So here's a thought I will leave with the remaining regulars of both
> newsgroups: Between the two newsgroups there is a considerable amount
> of talent and dedication, at least enough to keep one group alive and
> thriving. So I think it may be time to merge the two groups/and their
> regulars back together. Before anyone says this is blasphemy, let me
> remind you that this particular asshole will not be around to muck
> things up. Let me repeat this, *I* will *not* be around, *at all*. So
> if I was the, or a, reason you left RAMFM to start AHPBBFM (which is
> probably 90% of the AHPBBFM members), you can take me out of your
> equation. The current equation being: is it better to be member of a
> thriving NG, or to one that limps along? Now some of you are probably
> thinking what happens "when/if" Patrick comes back. I will tell you
> this. I know the errors of my past. If I come back, I'll will extend
> the olive branch and will be mellowed out. Yes, this will probably be
> hard for me to do, but *I promise* I will be diplomatic for the sake of
> a continued existence in our little corner of Usenet. Now some of you
> might be thinking this is game, a ploy, or a load of BS, but let me
> assure you it is not. I do not play games. This is not a ploy. I do
> not BS. And I do not troll (like some others do). I will be replying
> a few more times in RAMFM, I will send out a final post, and then I
> will be gone. It's just a thought, but I think the time has come...
> can you all come together...? The decision is yours...
>
> Patrick
> '93 Cobra


Dunno how long you've been part of this NG or usenet for that matter. I've
been online in one alias or another both as a participant, operator and
lurker, for over 20 years. The one thing that is very apparent is that
discussion groups wax and wane on a regular basis.
Some of the reasons, in no particular order, are:
1) seasonal...there's a definite downswing due to the fact most ppl are out
enjoying the summer. Fall, winter & spring are busy usenet times.
2) some posters just don't get the idea of someone else having a different
opinion, and their entitlement to having that different opinion. This
results in the obvious 100 reply threads which in effect amount to nothing
more than "you're an asshole" and "I know you are but what am I?" Yes, its
true, they're an irritant and you don't have to read them... but they're
like an itch... sooner or later you're gonna scratch it.
3) 2 or more talented persons who have no respect for each other's abilities
..- instead of "thats interesting, I'd have done it this way" which would
have resulted in more and less confusing information for the question
asked...... however, usually just result in #2.
4) subject matter...on an unmoderated NG.. too many OTs will kill it
everytime (especially controversial topics)....see #2.
5) lurkers... yeah I'm one... I'm unclear as to how lurkers affect a NG's
survival... if I don't have anything to contribute, I don't. If I wanted to
just chat.. there's IRC... I've operated/moderated a few rooms in my day..
but they all folded sooner or later due to general lack of attendance.
6) internet forums.. due to their availability and diversity.. from car
specific club forums, to car specific forums, to parts manufacturer or
suppliers forums, for the most part will get you your information plus the
benefit of illustrations.
-
-
Trolls.... are so immaterial and so far down the list in importance I
couldn't find a number....

Patrick, in short, this NG will either live or die, neither you, nor I, nor
the whole bunch of regulars will help it to survive if there's a lack of
interest. If by survival you mean "Hey Kate! What did you do this weekend?",
it may end up that way. If by survival you mean "My framus won't connect to
my '88 chrome reverse muffler bearings.. do I need to???", will depend on
the obvious... ppl will have to pose the questions.
--
Jafo
'02 GT Black
Not eggzackly stock.

PS... btw Kate... What DID you do this weekend?
LMBO


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Old 09-05-2005, 23:01   #4 (permalink)
CobraJet
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members

In article <1125946388.985552.274760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote:

> CobraJet wrote:


RAMFM should know that Patrick brought this post over here from the
Big Block group, and it really should have been posted whole to keep it
in context.

>
> > It's nice to see some 20-odd people reply to the Roll Call. However,
> > it seems everyone is just waiting for someone else to post first.

>
> I never understood this thinking... folks complaining that things are
> dead, yet they're reluctant to post anything. It's like someone
> thinking the conversation at a party sucks, while *they* are sitting in
> a back corner with their mouth shut the whole time.


Sometimes I think people hesitate to post about whatever because
they think it may not be interesting or important. This should not be a
factor, as you cannot second guess another person's opinion.

On the flip side, there have been some really ass-kickin' posts that
received little or no feedback. This attitude creates apathy. If you
liked what someone else had to say, take a moment and say so.

Remember the "old" CobraJet? I wrote stories and offered my brand of
twisted humor in various ways. After a while, I felt that nobody cared,
so I quit. The only way I could get interaction was flaming the snot
out of someone. See how that works?

>
> > People, take a look through the list of other alt.-hierarchy auto
> > groups. The number of them that are now totally abandoned is
> > considerable. Unless some of you take the initiative to create more
> > talk, we will join their ranks.

>
> Yep, a NG only lives because of consistent contributions by its
> members.


Yep.
>
> > I am no longer of the mindset to flog this group into shape by myself.
> > Matter > of fact, I have back-shelved personal auto endeavors until I'm
> > done building > things around here.

>
> He flogs; I massage.


I'm probably more adept with a whip than you, but I digress.

>
> > I'm not alone in this concern. Patrick in RAMFM has expressed
> > concern over the steady decline in quality on-topic banter. Even the
> > proliferation of "tech" questions by the same confused individual under
> > a multitude of different nyms is not going to help them or us.

>
> He's calls me a confused individual... that's okay... I swiped him
> earlier with the term stupid.


I had to laugh at this, sorry. Feeling a bit picked on? As Wound Up
mentioned in the other group, you were not the person I was referring
to. Not even close. Or...

Do you know what a nym is? *Are* you admitting to this?

Me, stupid? Arrogant and calculating at times, maybe.

>
> > I know Patrick tries hard, but sooner or later he has to realize it can't
> > be > a one-man show.

>
> Thanks, I do try hard. But I've never thought of myself as a one-man
> show. I've only tried to do my part, and hoped others would do theirs.


I entirely understand your efforts, although you must spend an awful
lot of time in the Webside auto sites.

>
>
> > One person here needs to take charge and field suggestions for
> > keeping this group alive.

>
> I see it a little differently. Again, it isn't a one-person job. No
> one person can do it. It takes everyone who reads the NG to keep it
> alive.


Again, "here" in context is AHPBBFM. I absolutely believe in the
merits of an organizer who can coordinate discussion and ideas.
Obviously, a lone crusader is destined to failure.

Most of the newbies in RAMFM have no reference for comparison. When
I came on board in '98, there were three to four hundred posts a day.
Of course, there was the still the occasional flame war, but enough
on-topic stuff to keep ya hoppin'. I remember "conversations" where I
had to reload this group every few minutes too keep up.

Now, well, if you extract the off-topic crap here, there isn't much
left.

>
> > It won't be me. If things pick up consistently, I may participate as time
> > permits. Otherwise, I may "see" some of you Webside next year.

>
> My NG contributions will soon end. I will be checking out later this
> week. I may be back sometime next year. I am a little concerned
> when/if I do come back that there may not be anything to come back to.
> So here's a thought I will leave with the remaining regulars of both
> newsgroups: Between the two newsgroups there is a considerable amount
> of talent and dedication, at least enough to keep one group alive and
> thriving. So I think it may be time to merge the two groups/and their
> regulars back together. Before anyone says this is blasphemy, let me


Physically and ideologically impossible. There are people here who
have no interest in our topics, and people in the BB group who consider
RAMFM an utter waste of time after years of flaming and off-topic shit.
Those who still like both, will post in both. You see Thunder Snakes
here on a regular basis.

> remind you that this particular asshole will not be around to muck
> things up. Let me repeat this, *I* will *not* be around, *at all*. So


I understand you are getting burned out, and there are other things
in life. Today's posts are in fact four months after my last posts, so
I know.

My primary criticism in the past of your "news of the hour" approach
was that your headlines were too broad-based, involving cars that are
not even close to the main reason a person looking to join here would
be interested in. There surely must be enough Mustang-related tech and
whatnot out there to post in here instead.

And again, it should not be on *you* to pull this stuff in by
yourself.

> if I was the, or a, reason you left RAMFM to start AHPBBFM (which is
> probably 90% of the AHPBBFM members), you can take me out of your


Well, don't flatter yourself too much. Although you and I went
around in circles over a couple things, the main reason I formed
AHPBBFM is as I've mentioned several times; there were SO many posts in
here about late models and small blocks that the occasional BB talk got
buried. Plus, for me, the world doesn't revolve around Mustangs. You
know, I have five Torinos and three Cyclones and several even bigger
cars.

> equation. The current equation being: is it better to be member of a
> thriving NG, or to one that limps along?


The talk is too different to ever join. In case you missed it, the
main subject of the post you replied to was to upload a revised version
of the AHPBBFM Posting Rules. RAMFM people are far too interested in
non-Mustang happenings to abide by rules, and AHPBBFM guys *generally*
want to stick to the topics listed in the page.

> Now some of you are probably
> thinking what happens "when/if" Patrick comes back. I will tell you
> this. I know the errors of my past. If I come back, I'll will extend
> the olive branch and will be mellowed out. Yes, this will probably be
> hard for me to do, but *I promise* I will be diplomatic for the sake of
> a continued existence in our little corner of Usenet. Now some of you
> might be thinking this is game, a ploy, or a load of BS, but let me
> assure you it is not. I do not play games. This is not a ploy. I do
> not BS. And I do not troll (like some others do). I will be replying
> a few more times in RAMFM, I will send out a final post, and then I
> will be gone. It's just a thought, but I think the time has come...
> can you all come together...? The decision is yours...


The time *has* come for everyone to mellow out, otherwise there
simply will be nothing here. Countless people have exited Usenet over
the years because they could just not stomach the elevated temperatures
for any length of time. In the past, we continued the bickering because
it seemed there would always be sufficient members. Things are
changing. No, they have changed already.

Remember when we used to get trolled by guys who crossposted in from
other groups? Hell, even they are MIA; their home groups are wastelands
now. There are those among us presently that play games of subterfuge
and guile to get their little kicks, aided by members who just cannot
resist egging them on. Some of them even know some things about cars.
What will they do when they are left to talk to themselves? This *IS*
already happening, BTW.

I see it like this. New blood has to create ideas for group projects
and increased membership. The merits of Usenet participation need to be
trotted in front of the Websiders. If you can pull in a fraction of
them, you'd be in good shape. RAMFM (and my group) needs to back off
the negativism towards websites that "illicitly" monitor newsgroups.
None of those guys are getting rich, but they *are* providing an avenue
for recruitment. Wake up, people, it's free advertising. Posting shit
like "Autoforumz sux" just makes us look like kids.

A serious consideration to at least a few basic enforceable rules in
the Mustang group is a must. Again, one of the reasons the Web has
prospered is because some semblance of order exists there. Religion and
politics are the two most incendiary topics anywhere. They have their
place in Usenet; the auto groups ain't it.

Years ago I proposed basic rules and the formation or commandeering
of another newsgroup (by that I mean using one already formed that is
empty) for off-topic yakking. It was turned down. Ironically, most of
the people who objected are no longer posting. See what happens?

I can come up with ideas all day long, being "stupid" and all. But I
refuse to burn up my time implementing them myself. Everyone has to
play, or we can all go Webside.

The two groups cannot "join", but can collaborate on ideas and
tactics. The overt and covert Trolls need to grow up or be frozen
completely. For me, I will see what happens over the next two weeks.
Patrick, I can't tell you what to do, but I advise against shutting the
door entirely unless you see continued apathy.

I am crossposting this in violation of the rules I wrote due to its
importance and topic matter. For those of you in RAMFM interested in
these rules, the new version is here:

http://members.dancris.com/~cobrajet/AHPBBFM.html

CobraJet

>
> Patrick
> '93 Cobra
>


--
CobraJet
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:01   #5 (permalink)
Dan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members

Just to add my two cents worth of apathy...

For whatever it's worth, because I'm more of a lurker than an active
contributor, I stopped paying close attention to RAMFM some time ago.
Not because of anything other than the fact that Usenet, relative to
the alternatives, is a pain in the ass to use. I have to buy a decent
feed to use decent tools or use free feeds and their tools (Google)
which are all right but still pretty pathetic compared to the web-based
forums that exist now and which are all free (at least the ones I care
about). Usenet and the related tools don't have the features that the
web-based systems offer such as editing a post, deleting a post, or
using styles and such.

As for content, just about every major tuner has a board on the web,
and most of the auto clubs as well. I also have several choices of
local forums with people I know and cruise with or see at get
togethers. There are also more choices of forums specific to my
interests and they are easier to find and easier to participate on,
imho, because of the tools. And, sadly, there is simply more
information and tech out on the web then there is in Usenet right now.

So, while I still check in out of habit, I don't spend too much effort
because it's just relatively harder to deal with on a post to post
basis. If there were more activity I might change my mind. But it would
have to be significant because the tools would still suck.

I know, it takes participation to make a group work well, and that's
another problem for me since I barely have time to check in. Combine
all the Usenet issues with this and here I am posting to the *only*
Usenet group that I follow anymore at all :).

Dan
2003 Cobra convertible
With some stuff and things

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Old 09-06-2005, 19:01   #6 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Attention AHPBBFM & RAMFM Members


(snipped for a selective reply)


> Years ago I proposed basic rules and the formation or commandeering
> of another newsgroup (by that I mean using one already formed that is
> empty) for off-topic yakking. It was turned down. Ironically, most of
> the people who objected are no longer posting. See what happens?
>


I think the idea of using alt.autos.mercury.cougar (although the Cougar
has gone through many metamorphoses) for OT and SBF talk was a good one.

It's also a spot where those of us who drive other OT Fords (e.g., Super
Coupes, Crown Vics, and Tempos) can discuss the cars that fall between
the two groups. Some of us still use AAMC.

> I can come up with ideas all day long, being "stupid" and all. But I
> refuse to burn up my time implementing them myself. Everyone has to
> play, or we can all go Webside.
>


Well, there's one. Interrupting a political thread with "you are way
OT, all interested please go here" is another. Updating the RAMFM
charter with a "political and religious discussions" clause (and using
the RAMFM charter) is another.

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

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