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Old 11-10-2005, 21:01   #1 (permalink)
Rich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

A chemist at Washington University in St. Louis hopes to find the
right stuff to put the element hydrogen in a sticky situation.
Lev Gelb, Ph.D., Washington University assistant professor of
chemistry, prepares theoretical models of molecules that may be used
to store and transport hydrogen gas.

Image: Storing hydrogen is problematic. A WUSTL chemist and his
colleagues are exploring different approaches to help make hydrogen
fuel more practical.

Gaseous at room temperature, hydrogen is even lighter and less dense
than natural gas and thus harder to store. So, while hydrogen has a
high energy-per-weight, it has a low energy-per-volume.

"If you had a kilogram of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure, you'd have
to store it in about 100 big balloons, if you can picture that," said
Gelb. "A kilogram of gasoline, on the other hand — that would be a
small container."

Gelb works on one possible solution to this storage problem, a process
called gas physical adsorption.

"The idea here is to create materials composed of molecules hydrogen
likes to stick to," said Gelb. "If hydrogen stuck to these particles
you could carry around the substance, along with the hydrogen."

Such a substance would have to be relatively light-weight and very
porous, having a high surface area, in order to adsorb as much
hydrogen as possible. Then it is hoped that the hydrogen can be
removed at the site of combustion by applying some low-energy force
such as a vacuum.

"The problem is that as far as we know, nothing is sticky enough
without being too heavy," said Gelb.

But this doesn't stop him: his theoretical chemistry work aims at
calculating what the properties of such a material would be — what the
material should be made of, what it should look like. Currently, Gelb
and some of his post-doctoral researchers are looking at a class of
materials called coordination polymers, recently synthesized, highly
porous materials that have shown some promise in hydrogen gas
adsorption.

Building molecular models

By focusing on building molecular models of such materials, Gelb can
screen potentially promising molecules. This way he can have a good
idea whether a certain material might be a good candidate before
someone else devotes the time and energy involved in synthesizing it.

"Hydrogen gas has a lot of promise," said Gelb. "It has two basic
advantages: it is an efficient fuel and produces no pollutant
by-product."

Hydrogen, or H2, burns in the same way as natural gas. It is a
promising alternative energy, however, because its chemical energy can
be directly and efficiently converted to electricity in special fuel
cells that are easily miniaturized. In burning natural gas, on the
other hand, chemical energy first must be converted to mechanical
energy in order to create electricity, an extra step that reduces
efficiency.

Hydrogen also has a very high energy-to-weight ratio, higher than that
of natural gas and gasoline. Most appealing, perhaps, is that hydrogen
is clean burning — its combustion yields only water. Natural gas,
along with all fossil fuels, burns to produce water and carbon
dioxide, the most abundant greenhouse gas.

Unfortunately, there are many problems that have prevented and
continue to prevent hydrogen from being used on a large scale, of
which storage and transport is only one.

There are several other possible solutions to the storage/transport
problem, but each has significant downsides.

Pressing matter

The most likely option in the near future, said Gelb, is to simply
compress the gas at very high pressure. Hydrogen-powered car
prototypes made by General Motors, for example, use this storage
option. There are several drawbacks, however; storage tanks are
expensive and inherently dangerous, especially since hydrogen is
combustible. Additionally, it is energetically costly to compress the
hydrogen, making a net efficient usage of energy difficult to achieve.

Another potential storage solution involves cooling the gas to
extremely low temperatures until the gas becomes a liquid. This
option, however, would also be energetically costly and presents the
problem of evaporation.

A third idea involves chemically incorporating the hydrogen in a solid
material, for instance in a class of materials called metal hydrides.
Hydrogen can be stored in these materials at such high densities as to
surpass the density of liquid hydrogen. Unfortunately, it is very
difficult to get the hydrogen out of the material, requiring more
energy. Also, these hydrides are often very reactive, dangerous
materials — many react violently with both air and water and cease
working.

But the biggest problem with hydrogen, according to Gelb, is producing
it.

For one thing, considering hydrogen gas to be an energy 'source' is a
misnomer — it does not naturally occur on the earth; it must be
derived from something else. While hydrogen is the most abundant
element in the universe, on our planet all of it is bound with other
elements.

Water, for example, is two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen, and it is
also bound up in hydrocarbons and a milieu of other compounds. Thus,
hydrogen production is the larger problem that stands in the way of
ever achieving a 'hydrogen economy.'

Currently, the vast majority of hydrogen gas is produced from natural
gas in a process called steam reforming. Besides using up natural gas,
this process also creates carbon dioxide — the byproduct absent in
hydrogen combustion, which contributes to much of its promise as a
'green' fuel.

While there has been some progress in sequestering this carbon dioxide
in places where it cannot seep into the atmosphere, such as deep
underground, producing hydrogen via steam reforming has only limited
promise for reducing greenhouse emissions, and is not a renewable
strategy.

"The case has been made persuasively that you'd be better off just
burning the natural gas, rather than going to the trouble of producing
hydrogen from natural gas and going through all the problems
associated with its storage and transport," said Gelb.

But that doesn't stop him from trying to solve these problems.

Gelb, in fact, is working in collaboration with several other
Washington University researchers in energy-related science.

This work is supported by the recently established Washington
University Center for Materials Innovation. His Washington University
colleagues in this endeavor are: Pratim Biwas, William Buhro, Dewey
Holten, Ramki Kalyanaraman, Kenneth Kelton, Richard Loomis, Thomas
Vaid, and Amy Walker.

Source: Washington University in St. Louis (By Doug Main)




This news is brought to you by PhysOrg.com

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Old 11-10-2005, 22:01   #2 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

Rich wrote:
> A chemist at Washington University in St. Louis hopes to find the
> right stuff to put the element hydrogen in a sticky situation.
> Lev Gelb, Ph.D., Washington University assistant professor of
> chemistry, prepares theoretical models of molecules that may be used
> to store and transport hydrogen gas.
>
> Image: Storing hydrogen is problematic. A WUSTL chemist and his
> colleagues are exploring different approaches to help make hydrogen
> fuel more practical.
>
> Gaseous at room temperature, hydrogen is even lighter and less dense
> than natural gas and thus harder to store. So, while hydrogen has a
> high energy-per-weight, it has a low energy-per-volume.
>
> "If you had a kilogram of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure, you'd have
> to store it in about 100 big balloons, if you can picture that," said
> Gelb. "A kilogram of gasoline, on the other hand — that would be a
> small container."
>
> Gelb works on one possible solution to this storage problem, a process
> called gas physical adsorption.
>
> "The idea here is to create materials composed of molecules hydrogen
> likes to stick to," said Gelb. "If hydrogen stuck to these particles
> you could carry around the substance, along with the hydrogen."
>
> Such a substance would have to be relatively light-weight and very
> porous, having a high surface area, in order to adsorb as much
> hydrogen as possible. Then it is hoped that the hydrogen can be
> removed at the site of combustion by applying some low-energy force
> such as a vacuum.
>
> "The problem is that as far as we know, nothing is sticky enough
> without being too heavy," said Gelb.
>
> But this doesn't stop him: his theoretical chemistry work aims at
> calculating what the properties of such a material would be — what the
> material should be made of, what it should look like. Currently, Gelb
> and some of his post-doctoral researchers are looking at a class of
> materials called coordination polymers, recently synthesized, highly
> porous materials that have shown some promise in hydrogen gas
> adsorption.
>
> Building molecular models
>
> By focusing on building molecular models of such materials, Gelb can
> screen potentially promising molecules. This way he can have a good
> idea whether a certain material might be a good candidate before
> someone else devotes the time and energy involved in synthesizing it.
>
> "Hydrogen gas has a lot of promise," said Gelb. "It has two basic
> advantages: it is an efficient fuel and produces no pollutant
> by-product."
>
> Hydrogen, or H2, burns in the same way as natural gas. It is a
> promising alternative energy, however, because its chemical energy can
> be directly and efficiently converted to electricity in special fuel
> cells that are easily miniaturized. In burning natural gas, on the
> other hand, chemical energy first must be converted to mechanical
> energy in order to create electricity, an extra step that reduces
> efficiency.
>
> Hydrogen also has a very high energy-to-weight ratio, higher than that
> of natural gas and gasoline. Most appealing, perhaps, is that hydrogen
> is clean burning — its combustion yields only water. Natural gas,
> along with all fossil fuels, burns to produce water and carbon
> dioxide, the most abundant greenhouse gas.
>
> Unfortunately, there are many problems that have prevented and
> continue to prevent hydrogen from being used on a large scale, of
> which storage and transport is only one.
>
> There are several other possible solutions to the storage/transport
> problem, but each has significant downsides.
>
> Pressing matter
>
> The most likely option in the near future, said Gelb, is to simply
> compress the gas at very high pressure. Hydrogen-powered car
> prototypes made by General Motors, for example, use this storage
> option. There are several drawbacks, however; storage tanks are
> expensive and inherently dangerous, especially since hydrogen is
> combustible. Additionally, it is energetically costly to compress the
> hydrogen, making a net efficient usage of energy difficult to achieve.
>
> Another potential storage solution involves cooling the gas to
> extremely low temperatures until the gas becomes a liquid. This
> option, however, would also be energetically costly and presents the
> problem of evaporation.
>
> A third idea involves chemically incorporating the hydrogen in a solid
> material, for instance in a class of materials called metal hydrides.
> Hydrogen can be stored in these materials at such high densities as to
> surpass the density of liquid hydrogen. Unfortunately, it is very
> difficult to get the hydrogen out of the material, requiring more
> energy. Also, these hydrides are often very reactive, dangerous
> materials — many react violently with both air and water and cease
> working.
>
> But the biggest problem with hydrogen, according to Gelb, is producing
> it.
>
> For one thing, considering hydrogen gas to be an energy 'source' is a
> misnomer — it does not naturally occur on the earth; it must be
> derived from something else. While hydrogen is the most abundant
> element in the universe, on our planet all of it is bound with other
> elements.
>
> Water, for example, is two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen, and it is
> also bound up in hydrocarbons and a milieu of other compounds. Thus,
> hydrogen production is the larger problem that stands in the way of
> ever achieving a 'hydrogen economy.'
>
> Currently, the vast majority of hydrogen gas is produced from natural
> gas in a process called steam reforming. Besides using up natural gas,
> this process also creates carbon dioxide — the byproduct absent in
> hydrogen combustion, which contributes to much of its promise as a
> 'green' fuel.
>
> While there has been some progress in sequestering this carbon dioxide
> in places where it cannot seep into the atmosphere, such as deep
> underground, producing hydrogen via steam reforming has only limited
> promise for reducing greenhouse emissions, and is not a renewable
> strategy.
>
> "The case has been made persuasively that you'd be better off just
> burning the natural gas, rather than going to the trouble of producing
> hydrogen from natural gas and going through all the problems
> associated with its storage and transport," said Gelb.
>
> But that doesn't stop him from trying to solve these problems.
>
> Gelb, in fact, is working in collaboration with several other
> Washington University researchers in energy-related science.
>
> This work is supported by the recently established Washington
> University Center for Materials Innovation. His Washington University
> colleagues in this endeavor are: Pratim Biwas, William Buhro, Dewey
> Holten, Ramki Kalyanaraman, Kenneth Kelton, Richard Loomis, Thomas
> Vaid, and Amy Walker.
>
> Source: Washington University in St. Louis (By Doug Main)
>
>
>
>
> This news is brought to you by PhysOrg.com
>


OH MY DEAR GOD HE'S GOING TO LEVEL OUR FAIR CITY!!!

AAAAAHHHHH STOCKPILE AMMO!

What are you, the new Patrick?

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

AHPBBFM posting rules: http://tinyurl.com/ak694
AHPBBFM links page: http://tinyurl.com/a9qsx

Big Block is an Attitude

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Old 11-10-2005, 23:01   #3 (permalink)
Spike
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:32:27 GMT, Wound Up <none@your.disposal.ask.me>
wrote:


>>
>> Source: Washington University in St. Louis (By Doug Main)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This news is brought to you by PhysOrg.com
>>

>
>OH MY DEAR GOD HE'S GOING TO LEVEL OUR FAIR CITY!!!
>
>AAAAAHHHHH STOCKPILE AMMO!
>
>What are you, the new Patrick?

Remember... don't invest in precious metals! Invest in lead. He who
has the most bullets can have whatever he wants.

To bad the "essential tools" picture won't post... LOL
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/d..._11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/E...ebuild_006.jpg
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Old 11-11-2005, 06:01   #4 (permalink)
Backyard Mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

How France would do it...

http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/m.../newsnote.html

Look at the illustration...I hear Peugeot intends to solve the problem by
installing brake-lights ten times normal size with hi-intensity LED's in
them.

LOL



Spike <jma@snowcrest.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:32:27 GMT, Wound Up <none@your.disposal.ask.me>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Source: Washington University in St. Louis (By Doug Main)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This news is brought to you by PhysOrg.com
>>>

>>
>>OH MY DEAR GOD HE'S GOING TO LEVEL OUR FAIR CITY!!!
>>
>>AAAAAHHHHH STOCKPILE AMMO!
>>
>>What are you, the new Patrick?

> Remember... don't invest in precious metals! Invest in lead. He who
> has the most bullets can have whatever he wants.
>
> To bad the "essential tools" picture won't post... LOL




--
Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, staving off dementia here..DEAL with it!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2005, 10:01   #5 (permalink)
WindsorFox
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

Backyard Mechanic wrote:
> How France would do it...
>
> http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/m.../newsnote.html
>
> Look at the illustration...I hear Peugeot intends to solve the problem by
> installing brake-lights ten times normal size with hi-intensity LED's in
> them.
>
> LOL
>



That's going to be a real problem with all the moozlems lighting
cars on fire....

--
I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer. - Backyard Mechanic
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2005, 15:01   #6 (permalink)
Jim Warman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

The sky is falling!!!!! the sky is falling!!!!!

42 volt systems have been pushed back how many times??? Hybrids have their
batteries coupled in such a way as to deliver in excess of 300 volts and
contain stuff you really wont like.... the liberals might win the next
election... fossil fuel prices wont go down... used tires are still a major
concern.... some people think the Big Mac tastes good and a hydrogen fuel
cell blew the side out of one Apollo mission.....

The world isn't perfect, Rich....

Once they find a cure for cancer, there will be the next big killer... every
gain comes at a cost...



  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2005, 17:01   #7 (permalink)
cprice@here.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream


Shut up Warman.

Jim Warman wrote:
> The sky is falling!!!!! the sky is falling!!!!!
>
> 42 volt systems have been pushed back how many times??? Hybrids have their
> batteries coupled in such a way as to deliver in excess of 300 volts and
> contain stuff you really wont like.... the liberals might win the next
> election... fossil fuel prices wont go down... used tires are still a major
> concern.... some people think the Big Mac tastes good and a hydrogen fuel
> cell blew the side out of one Apollo mission.....
>
> The world isn't perfect, Rich....
>
> Once they find a cure for cancer, there will be the next big killer... every
> gain comes at a cost...
>
>
>

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2005, 17:01   #8 (permalink)
Spike
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:39:20 GMT, "Jim Warman"
<mechanic@tenalpsulet.net> wrote:

>The sky is falling!!!!! the sky is falling!!!!!
>
>42 volt systems have been pushed back how many times??? Hybrids have their
>batteries coupled in such a way as to deliver in excess of 300 volts and
>contain stuff you really wont like.... the liberals might win the next
>election... fossil fuel prices wont go down... used tires are still a major
>concern.... some people think the Big Mac tastes good and a hydrogen fuel
>cell blew the side out of one Apollo mission.....
>
>The world isn't perfect, Rich....
>
>Once they find a cure for cancer, there will be the next big killer... every
>gain comes at a cost...
>
>

Ain't it the truth! and Amen! Wouldn't be the first, nor the last time
they've fixed something only to find they screwed up worse. Places
where they imported something like kudzu to solve a problem and it got
out of control. Killer bees. Lots of other examples.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/d..._11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/E...ebuild_006.jpg
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2005, 18:01   #9 (permalink)
Rich
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:39:20 GMT, "Jim Warman"
<mechanic@tenalpsulet.net> wrote:

>The sky is falling!!!!! the sky is falling!!!!!
>
>42 volt systems have been pushed back how many times??? Hybrids have their
>batteries coupled in such a way as to deliver in excess of 300 volts and
>contain stuff you really wont like.... the liberals might win the next
>election... fossil fuel prices wont go down... used tires are still a major
>concern.... some people think the Big Mac tastes good and a hydrogen fuel
>cell blew the side out of one Apollo mission.....
>
>The world isn't perfect, Rich....
>
>Once they find a cure for cancer, there will be the next big killer... every
>gain comes at a cost...
>
>


I remember going to the Ontario Science Centre, seeing a guy put a
small balloon filled with hydrogen gas into a flame. The blast it
produced could be felt like a slap in the face. Now imagine some
vehicle, with about 1000 x that much hydrogen, compressed,
getting into a nice big crash. KABOOM!!!!! :)

My main argument is that it is an "enegy deficit" way of producing
a fuel. Until they solve that, the only people stupid enough to want
to use it will be politicians because it isn't their money being
spent.
-Rich
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Old 11-11-2005, 19:01   #10 (permalink)
Jim Warman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hydrogen fuel still a massive, dangerous pipe-dream

Hi... haven't seen you around the group since the last time you told me to
shut up.... what's the matter? Your ears keep getting hung up on your
sphincter?


<cprice@here.com> wrote in message news:Wgadf.490060$tl2.401711@pd7tw3no...
>
> Shut up Warman.
>
> Jim Warman wrote:
> > The sky is falling!!!!! the sky is falling!!!!!
> >
> > 42 volt systems have been pushed back how many times??? Hybrids have

their
> > batteries coupled in such a way as to deliver in excess of 300 volts and
> > contain stuff you really wont like.... the liberals might win the next
> > election... fossil fuel prices wont go down... used tires are still a

major
> > concern.... some people think the Big Mac tastes good and a hydrogen

fuel
> > cell blew the side out of one Apollo mission.....
> >
> > The world isn't perfect, Rich....
> >
> > Once they find a cure for cancer, there will be the next big killer...

every
> > gain comes at a cost...
> >
> >
> >



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