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Old 11-10-2005, 18:01   #1 (permalink)
JohnV@nn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
OT: "shop fees"

Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
"shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
$71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
$199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.

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Old 11-10-2005, 18:01   #2 (permalink)
KJ.Kate
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Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"


"JohnV@nn" <jmvannoy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131671366.660134.110440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
: Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
: to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
: make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
: price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
: the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
: state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
: "shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
: $71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
: philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
: slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
: me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
: $199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.


I think you are absolutely right John.
They should have told you upfornt if there were any additional fees. In
particular something as vague as this.

Being the witch I am, I probabaly would ahve made a real fuss over it. I
realize it's only six and a half bucks, but it's the principal of the thing.

KJK


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Old 11-10-2005, 18:01   #3 (permalink)
Spike
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: "shop fees"

On 10 Nov 2005 17:09:26 -0800, "JohnV@nn" <jmvannoy@gmail.com> wrote:

>Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
>to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
>make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
>price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
>the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
>state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
>"shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
>$71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
>philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
>slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
>me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
>$199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.

The law here, last time I read it, says that a shop can exceed an
estimate; which is all they gave you up front, anyway; by 10%.
So, if you had been given an estimate of $64.99, they could add
another $6.50 (rounded to the nearest full number) and still be well
within the law. They didn't even need to list it as shop fees... they
could have just adjusted the numbers for the service provided.

An estimate is just that. An estimate... not the final price. Some
shops are a lot closer than others in their estimates.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/d..._11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/E...ebuild_006.jpg
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Old 11-10-2005, 19:01   #4 (permalink)
Jim Warman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

This is a really bad subject.... it would take volumes to explain everything
there is to say on this and similar subjects. Complex isn't good enough to
desribe this...

For many, many years, I was an entrpreneur... not a great businessman....
not even a mediocre businessman.... I made a decent living but never enough
to really expand my business.

One of my biggest mistakes was "package" pricing. For example.... The
Hankook T24 tire was a very popular tire in the small oilpatch town I lived
in at the time. Every shop in town sold (among other brands) Hankooks.... I
was quoting 129.95 each and took great pains in explaining that this would
be the price at the bottom of the invoice.... this included new valve stems,
mounting, balancing, tire tax, GST plus anything else I may have forgotten.
The guy down the street sold the same tire.... many, many more of the same
tire.... for $119.95 - plus mounting - plus valve stem - plus balancing -
plus tire tax - plus GST. His tire came out at over $140. I asked a good
customer why he bought his new tires down the street. He replied that my
price was too high. I explained, once again, that my price included
everything that the guy down the street charged extra for.... he told me
that this didn't explain why my price was so high.....

There is no sense in explaining many things.... a customer has a concern
with "hes/her baby" and after that, they go blank.... nothing will penetrate
that singleminded, blank look. It is more complex that what I can bring to
words, consumer psychology (for me) is unfathomable....

Shop supplies is a charge usually based on some percentage of the RO... be
it parts... be it labour... or even a combination of the two. We have one
government agency that abjectly refuses to pay "shop supplies".... what
happens next is a good use of taxpayer dollars..... I make a straight time
(I work flat rate) punch and count what I used.... how many rags.... how
much spray product... how many nuts/bolts/washers/whatever.

While this may sound petty, I always remark that electrical wire was
something I BOUGHT by the roll and GAVE AWAY by the foot. I just finish
paying an invoice.... $800 for "hardware" (nuts, bolts, cotter pins, ad
infinitum) and some guy wants me to give him a handful of hardware for
free....

At the very least, each and everyone of us should be more concerned with the
quality of the service, the accuracy of the diagnosis, the timeliness of the
repair and if the service experience was pleasant (or at least bearable) or
an ordeal. If price is the main motivation for a repair decision, you will
be sorely disappointed. Most of the good guys know who they are.... and they
know that a it is the car deciding how much money will be spent.

As for your alignment.... the shop "could" have stated the surcharge as a
percentage.... you may or may not have listened.... if you had listened, you
may have gone down the street to the shop that didn't state the
surcharge.... you may have gotten a better alignment or you may have been
treated to shoddy workmanship...

Do you feel you were overcarged? If so, why? How could the shop have changed
this feeling? What were the reasons you decided to use this shop over other
similar shops? Would you return to this shop? And there a whole bunch of
other questions to be asked....

Yes, there are a lot of thieves, pretenders and charlatans in this trade....
If they are to f*ck you over, they wont do it with shop supply surcharges...
you'll get it in upselling, overselling, shoddy workmanship and inferior
parts..... and have a car that is more than likely still broken...




"JohnV@nn" <jmvannoy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131671366.660134.110440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
> to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
> make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
> price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
> the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
> state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
> "shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
> $71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
> philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
> slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
> me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
> $199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.
>



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Old 11-10-2005, 21:01   #5 (permalink)
Mark C.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

Yes, what he said. I agree with Jim, now that I'm working in the retail
world.

--
Mark
--
"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who once said, "I drank
what?". " Val Kilmer in Real Genius.





"Jim Warman" <mechanic@tenalpsulet.net> wrote in message
news:lETcf.192899$ir4.114710@edtnps90...
> This is a really bad subject.... it would take volumes to explain
> everything
> there is to say on this and similar subjects. Complex isn't good enough to
> desribe this...
>
> For many, many years, I was an entrpreneur... not a great businessman....
> not even a mediocre businessman.... I made a decent living but never
> enough
> to really expand my business.
>
> One of my biggest mistakes was "package" pricing. For example.... The
> Hankook T24 tire was a very popular tire in the small oilpatch town I
> lived
> in at the time. Every shop in town sold (among other brands) Hankooks....
> I
> was quoting 129.95 each and took great pains in explaining that this would
> be the price at the bottom of the invoice.... this included new valve
> stems,
> mounting, balancing, tire tax, GST plus anything else I may have
> forgotten.
> The guy down the street sold the same tire.... many, many more of the same
> tire.... for $119.95 - plus mounting - plus valve stem - plus balancing -
> plus tire tax - plus GST. His tire came out at over $140. I asked a good
> customer why he bought his new tires down the street. He replied that my
> price was too high. I explained, once again, that my price included
> everything that the guy down the street charged extra for.... he told me
> that this didn't explain why my price was so high.....
>
> There is no sense in explaining many things.... a customer has a concern
> with "hes/her baby" and after that, they go blank.... nothing will
> penetrate
> that singleminded, blank look. It is more complex that what I can bring to
> words, consumer psychology (for me) is unfathomable....
>
> Shop supplies is a charge usually based on some percentage of the RO... be
> it parts... be it labour... or even a combination of the two. We have one
> government agency that abjectly refuses to pay "shop supplies".... what
> happens next is a good use of taxpayer dollars..... I make a straight time
> (I work flat rate) punch and count what I used.... how many rags.... how
> much spray product... how many nuts/bolts/washers/whatever.
>
> While this may sound petty, I always remark that electrical wire was
> something I BOUGHT by the roll and GAVE AWAY by the foot. I just finish
> paying an invoice.... $800 for "hardware" (nuts, bolts, cotter pins, ad
> infinitum) and some guy wants me to give him a handful of hardware for
> free....
>
> At the very least, each and everyone of us should be more concerned with
> the
> quality of the service, the accuracy of the diagnosis, the timeliness of
> the
> repair and if the service experience was pleasant (or at least bearable)
> or
> an ordeal. If price is the main motivation for a repair decision, you will
> be sorely disappointed. Most of the good guys know who they are.... and
> they
> know that a it is the car deciding how much money will be spent.
>
> As for your alignment.... the shop "could" have stated the surcharge as a
> percentage.... you may or may not have listened.... if you had listened,
> you
> may have gone down the street to the shop that didn't state the
> surcharge.... you may have gotten a better alignment or you may have been
> treated to shoddy workmanship...
>
> Do you feel you were overcarged? If so, why? How could the shop have
> changed
> this feeling? What were the reasons you decided to use this shop over
> other
> similar shops? Would you return to this shop? And there a whole bunch of
> other questions to be asked....
>
> Yes, there are a lot of thieves, pretenders and charlatans in this
> trade....
> If they are to f*ck you over, they wont do it with shop supply
> surcharges...
> you'll get it in upselling, overselling, shoddy workmanship and inferior
> parts..... and have a car that is more than likely still broken...
>
>
>
>
> "JohnV@nn" <jmvannoy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1131671366.660134.110440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
>> to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
>> make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
>> price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
>> the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
>> state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
>> "shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
>> $71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
>> philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
>> slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
>> me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
>> $199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.
>>

>
>



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Old 11-10-2005, 22:01   #6 (permalink)
Spike
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:31:48 -0600, "KJ.Kate"
<KJ.Kate@WhoseHotMail.com> wrote:

>
>"JohnV@nn" <jmvannoy@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1131671366.660134.110440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>: Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
>: to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
>: make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
>: price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
>: the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
>: state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
>: "shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
>: $71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
>: philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
>: slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
>: me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
>: $199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.
>
>
>I think you are absolutely right John.
>They should have told you upfornt if there were any additional fees. In
>particular something as vague as this.
>
>Being the witch I am, I probabaly would ahve made a real fuss over it. I
>realize it's only six and a half bucks, but it's the principal of the thing.
>
>KJK
>

I said this in a related thread, but, again... when he went in they
gave him an ESTIMATE of what the cost would be. Estimates are not
exact by their very definition.

In California, the Business and Professions Code says any business
which provides an estimate is permitted to exceed that estimate by
10%. If you look at what this gentleman was additionally charged, it's
about 10% of the estimate.

If they were really a rip off shop, they sure as heck wouldn't have
stopped at a mere $6.50. The worst ones for that that I have
encountered are the SMOG "specialists". The ones who only do SMOG.

If $6.50 is that big a deal... DO NOT GO to those MAACO type paint
shops. Anyone recall Earl "I'll paint any car for $29.95" Schibe? By
the time you got out the door that $29.95 had risen to over $600.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
w/Black Std Interior, A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok;
Vintage 40 16" rims w/225/50ZR16 KDWS BF Goodrich
gForce Radial T/As, Cobra drop; surround sound
audio-video...
See my ride at....
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/003_May_21_3004.jpg
Feb 2004- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/005_May_21_2004.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/d..._11_05_002.jpg
Jul 2005- http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/E...ebuild_006.jpg
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Old 11-10-2005, 22:01   #7 (permalink)
WindsorFox
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: OT: "shop fees"

JohnV@nn wrote:
> Just had a front-end alignment done. Now please don't think I'm trying
> to troll the group or start up a long thread about shops needing to
> make a profit, etc. But the shop performed a service for a quoted
> price, which in this case was $64.99. When I go to pick up the car,
> the bill is $71.49. Now I know they don't charge tax on labor in my
> state, and I'm pretty sure the FEA is all labor. The extra $6.50 is
> "shop fees". What I want to know is, why didn't they just quote me
> $71.49 up front? I mean, we could probably get into a whole
> philosophical thing about whether they can charge for rags, etc. but
> slipping this extra charge in on the "sly" seems a bit disingenuous to
> me. It gives me the exact same feeling as a car dealer tacking on a
> $199 "doc fee" after the price is negotiated in the parking lot.
>


I think I would have politely written the check for the previously
agreed amount.

--
I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer. - Backyard Mechanic
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Old 11-10-2005, 23:01   #8 (permalink)
WindsorFox
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

Jim Warman wrote:
> This is a really bad subject.... it would take volumes to explain everything
> there is to say on this and similar subjects. Complex isn't good enough to
> desribe this...
>
> For many, many years, I was an entrpreneur... not a great businessman....
> not even a mediocre businessman.... I made a decent living but never enough
> to really expand my business.
>
> One of my biggest mistakes was "package" pricing. For example.... The
> Hankook T24 tire was a very popular tire in the small oilpatch town I lived
> in at the time. Every shop in town sold (among other brands) Hankooks.... I
> was quoting 129.95 each and took great pains in explaining that this would
> be the price at the bottom of the invoice.... this included new valve stems,
> mounting, balancing, tire tax, GST plus anything else I may have forgotten.
> The guy down the street sold the same tire.... many, many more of the same
> tire.... for $119.95 - plus mounting - plus valve stem - plus balancing -
> plus tire tax - plus GST. His tire came out at over $140. I asked a good
> customer why he bought his new tires down the street. He replied that my
> price was too high. I explained, once again, that my price included
> everything that the guy down the street charged extra for.... he told me
> that this didn't explain why my price was so high.....
>


OKay, sorry to bust in here, but you realize that this person you
refer to is entirely too stupid to be allowed to drive??


--
I'm intrigued by the thought that, later on,
the poster wont be able to find his question,
let alone an answer. - Backyard Mechanic
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Old 11-10-2005, 23:01   #9 (permalink)
Mark C.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

"Mark C." <mustango656@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:CdqdnYBAQsp0genenZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@comcast.com...
> Yes, what he said. I agree with Jim, now that I'm working in the retail
> world.
>
> --
> Mark
> --




Oops, Sorry about the top post.
--
Mark
--
"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who once said, "I drank
what?". " Val Kilmer in Real Genius.






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Old 11-11-2005, 01:01   #10 (permalink)
Jim Warman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: "shop fees"

Oooooo... that was a low blow....

8^)


"Mark C." <mustango656@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ULOdna4Nc5Uzq-nenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Mark C." <mustango656@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:CdqdnYBAQsp0genenZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@comcast.com...
> > Yes, what he said. I agree with Jim, now that I'm working in the retail
> > world.
> >
> > --
> > Mark
> > --

>
>
>
> Oops, Sorry about the top post.
> --
> Mark
> --
> "I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who once said, "I drank
> what?". " Val Kilmer in Real Genius.
>
>
>
>
>
>



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