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Old 07-07-2005, 11:02   #1 (permalink)
Michael Johnson, PE
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

RichA wrote:
> Terrible performance for a six in this day
> and age. Ford has clearly decided to not take
> the Japanese route and provide real power
> (I don't even believe the current rating for the
> 6 at all) only to the V8.
> -Rich


I think you're missing the whole point of what the Mustang is supposed
to be if you think it should be competing with a Japanese FWD car. As
others have said, what other car offers as much hp and TORQUE in a RWD
package at the Mustang's price.
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Old 07-07-2005, 16:01   #2 (permalink)
Ritz
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
> RichA wrote:
>
>> Terrible performance for a six in this day
>> and age. Ford has clearly decided to not take
>> the Japanese route and provide real power (I don't even believe the
>> current rating for the
>> 6 at all) only to the V8.
>> -Rich

>
>
> I think you're missing the whole point of what the Mustang is supposed
> to be if you think it should be competing with a Japanese FWD car. As
> others have said, what other car offers as much hp and TORQUE in a RWD
> package at the Mustang's price.



There really isn't one with a base price anywhere close to the Mustang
(just a tad over US$19k). If you want something with more torque and
more power, it's not that big a deal (and still not that expensive when
you compare it to any Japanese car with similar power/torque numbers) to
slap a supercharger on the 3.8L. For $6-7k more than the Mustang you
could get something like the base Subaru WRX and have 20hp more than the
Mustang, but 20+ ft/lbs less torque. Supercharge the 3.8 and you're at
275hp and 285 ft/lbs and still a few grand cheaper than the Subaru.

For import sedan fun, I'm actually partial to the Audi 2.7L twin turbo.
With a cheap chip upgrade, that's good for 320hp and 380 ft/lbs of
torque. In my big heavy A6 w/6sp, I routinely smoke kids in Mustang
GTs. All that torque + all wheel drive is a wonderful thing. Of
course, that's a lot more expensive than a Mustang, but it just shows
that forced induction + a V6 can be a real stump puller if set up properly.

Cheers,



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Old 07-07-2005, 16:01   #3 (permalink)
Michael Johnson, PE
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

Ritz wrote:
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>> RichA wrote:
>>
>>> Terrible performance for a six in this day
>>> and age. Ford has clearly decided to not take
>>> the Japanese route and provide real power (I don't even believe the
>>> current rating for the
>>> 6 at all) only to the V8.
>>> -Rich

>>
>>
>>
>> I think you're missing the whole point of what the Mustang is supposed
>> to be if you think it should be competing with a Japanese FWD car. As
>> others have said, what other car offers as much hp and TORQUE in a RWD
>> package at the Mustang's price.

>
>
>
> There really isn't one with a base price anywhere close to the Mustang
> (just a tad over US$19k). If you want something with more torque and
> more power, it's not that big a deal (and still not that expensive when
> you compare it to any Japanese car with similar power/torque numbers) to
> slap a supercharger on the 3.8L. For $6-7k more than the Mustang you
> could get something like the base Subaru WRX and have 20hp more than the
> Mustang, but 20+ ft/lbs less torque. Supercharge the 3.8 and you're at
> 275hp and 285 ft/lbs and still a few grand cheaper than the Subaru.


The new Mustangs have a 4.0L SOHC V-6 that makes 210 hp and around 240
ft-lbs of torque. Install a blower and it will make 300+ rwhp and 350+
rwtq. Plus for $6k-$7k more you can get a Mutang GT with 300+ hp.

> For import sedan fun, I'm actually partial to the Audi 2.7L twin turbo.
> With a cheap chip upgrade, that's good for 320hp and 380 ft/lbs of
> torque. In my big heavy A6 w/6sp, I routinely smoke kids in Mustang
> GTs. All that torque + all wheel drive is a wonderful thing. Of
> course, that's a lot more expensive than a Mustang, but it just shows
> that forced induction + a V6 can be a real stump puller if set up properly.


Nothing beats a factory engine built for forced induction to squeeze out
cheap hp/tq.
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Old 07-07-2005, 17:01   #4 (permalink)
Ritz
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
> The new Mustangs have a 4.0L SOHC V-6 that makes 210 hp and around 240
> ft-lbs of torque. Install a blower and it will make 300+ rwhp and 350+
> rwtq. Plus for $6k-$7k more you can get a Mutang GT with 300+ hp.



Vortech claims 65hp gain and 44ft/lbs. And that's at the crank. I
haven't been able to find any numbers that jibe with your numbers above.
I doubt you could boost a stock engine that much without other
(expensive) work to the internals and fuel system.

>> For import sedan fun, I'm actually partial to the Audi 2.7L twin
>> turbo. With a cheap chip upgrade, that's good for 320hp and 380
>> ft/lbs of torque. In my big heavy A6 w/6sp, I routinely smoke kids in
>> Mustang GTs. All that torque + all wheel drive is a wonderful thing.
>> Of course, that's a lot more expensive than a Mustang, but it just
>> shows that forced induction + a V6 can be a real stump puller if set
>> up properly.

>
>
> Nothing beats a factory engine built for forced induction to squeeze out
> cheap hp/tq.


Nope. 8-)

Cheers,
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Old 07-07-2005, 19:02   #5 (permalink)
memset@cellulean.com
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

Nice car! Even in the looks department I like it.

I'll happily line up against your modded A6 at the drag strip though
=).. in a Mustang GT that looks like the rest you've "smoked". It's a
1998 Ford Mustang GT... one or two mods. FRPP 3.73 gears, Flowmaster
exhaust running dumps, cold air intake (pfff...), subframe connectors,
wider rear tires (255/60R-15)... and a Zex dry nitrous kit (75 shot).
On a dyno it managed (bottle pressure 1200psi) 273rwhp and 370rwtq
(which equates to roughly 314hp & 426 ft-lb torque at crank). I was
happy with the results. Car weighs 3,250lbs factory... 3,470lbs roughly
with me driving it. When just piddling around on the streets it's been
more than enough to tear into a "factory" Camaro SS & way more than
enough to tear into a stock or near-stock Camaro z28.

Ford did pretty good on these little 281's... 75 shot on the stock
motor & no problems. There's an 03 SVT Cobra my buddy Tommy owns... he
just recently put an NX wet kit on it (75 shot) after the pulley & chip
upgrade.. cold air intake, etc.. putting out 545rwhp and 600rwtq... he
runs low 11's all day long... but I'm pretty sure if he would learn how
to launch he'd be in the 10's =). Obviously.. motors built from the
factory for F/I devour all =).

-Mike

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Old 07-07-2005, 19:02   #6 (permalink)
Michael Johnson, PE
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

Ritz wrote:
> Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
>
>> The new Mustangs have a 4.0L SOHC V-6 that makes 210 hp and around 240
>> ft-lbs of torque. Install a blower and it will make 300+ rwhp and
>> 350+ rwtq. Plus for $6k-$7k more you can get a Mutang GT with 300+ hp.

>
>
>
> Vortech claims 65hp gain and 44ft/lbs. And that's at the crank. I
> haven't been able to find any numbers that jibe with your numbers above.
> I doubt you could boost a stock engine that much without other
> (expensive) work to the internals and fuel system.


IMHO, it could do it. I've run 16 psi on a 150K stock short block 302.
That 65 hp claim from Vortech is probably for 6 psi of boost. No self
respecting blower fan runs less than 9 psi. ;)

>>> For import sedan fun, I'm actually partial to the Audi 2.7L twin
>>> turbo. With a cheap chip upgrade, that's good for 320hp and 380
>>> ft/lbs of torque. In my big heavy A6 w/6sp, I routinely smoke kids
>>> in Mustang GTs. All that torque + all wheel drive is a wonderful
>>> thing. Of course, that's a lot more expensive than a Mustang, but it
>>> just shows that forced induction + a V6 can be a real stump puller if
>>> set up properly.

>>
>>
>>
>> Nothing beats a factory engine built for forced induction to squeeze
>> out cheap hp/tq.

>
>
> Nope. 8-)
>
> Cheers,

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Old 07-07-2005, 19:02   #7 (permalink)
Ritz
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

memset@cellulean.com wrote:
> Nice car! Even in the looks department I like it.


Next step is upgrading the turbos, fuel system and intercoolers. That
should get me about 420hp and a bit over 400 ft/lbs of torque (at the
rear wheels). That's pretty close to what you'd get from a recent
vintage viper.....cept you've got AWD. 8-) You've now got a "family
sedan" with lots of room, creature comforts, that can run low 12's with
a trunk full of groceries and child seats in the back. 8-) And you can
still take it out and play when it rains or snows. Try that with a
Mustang! 8-)

I'm still looking for a way to utilize my 428cj engine that I took out
of a wrecked '70 torino. I suspect it will eventually wind up in a
cobra kit or a GT-500 lookalike.


>
> I'll happily line up against your modded A6 at the drag strip though
> =).. in a Mustang GT that looks like the rest you've "smoked". It's a
> 1998 Ford Mustang GT... one or two mods. FRPP 3.73 gears, Flowmaster
> exhaust running dumps, cold air intake (pfff...), subframe connectors,
> wider rear tires (255/60R-15)... and a Zex dry nitrous kit (75 shot).
> On a dyno it managed (bottle pressure 1200psi) 273rwhp and 370rwtq
> (which equates to roughly 314hp & 426 ft-lb torque at crank). I was
> happy with the results. Car weighs 3,250lbs factory... 3,470lbs roughly
> with me driving it. When just piddling around on the streets it's been
> more than enough to tear into a "factory" Camaro SS & way more than
> enough to tear into a stock or near-stock Camaro z28.



Well, the Audi isn't really designed to be a "dragster." I suspect it
would mop you up on a rally course, though. 8-) In real life...on the
street, it's a very fast car....and not just in a straight line.

Cheers,
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Old 07-08-2005, 08:01   #8 (permalink)
memset@cellulean.com
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Re: The 6-cyl Mustang is a dog

I'm pretty confident I can (with a pair of slicks) run low 12's with
the bottle pressure around 1100~1300psi... forgot to mention Steeda
Tri-Ax shifter.. a godsend for people like me who like to powershift
like a sumbitch... practically ripping the shifter out lol.

Ain't a damn doubt about it.. motors built from the factory for F/I are
usually incredible. I'd LOVE to see your car (or any heavily modded A6)
at the track.. would be a fuggin beast no doubt. Of course.. I wouldn't
be dicking around with groceries in car OR kids in the back ;). I still
take my Mustang out in the rain & snow though... as does Tommy.. no
problems at all.

I'm not a rally driver by any means... turns frighten me. I'm a
"dragster" kinda guy. The subframe connectors definitely help in the
twisties, but I don't want to get too stiff of a suspension designed
for twisties for fear that I won't be able to launch well on a drag
strip!

Good luck w/ the 428CJ motor... I would love to have a project car, but
time won't permit that kinda time-consuming hobby at the moment. If you
do get around to doing something with it definitely keep me posted..
that's killer.

-Mike

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