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Old 03-17-2005, 00:10   #1 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: An Invitation...

one80out@hotmail.com wrote:
> Wound Up wrote:
>
>
>>The Firebird has always been the "re-bodied Camaro".

>
>
> I don't know about you Wound Up. Again, my remark was a "joke,"
> intended as a little dig to our Crapmaro-loving friend Steve L.


I realize that.

> Let's try this: when you read something that I type, just imagine a
> bunch of smileys after every sentence. Maybe you'll sleep better, and
> you'll definitely have a lot more time for that "job search" your wife
> thinks you're conducting while she's at work all day.


I have no trouble sleeping. And be very careful with the rest of that.

>
>>"At the time of its creation, the head of the Pontiac Division
>>was John DeLorean. Delorean had envisioned a much
>>sportier car to compete with the Ford Mustang. The original
>>DeLorean had designed a two seat sports car with a body
>>style very similar to what was to later become the Corvette's
>>body shape. In an effort to have a sports car available as soon
>>as possible, Pontiac used the existing F body of the Chevrolet
>>Camaro."

>
>
> What's this now, talking "facts" about the old iron? I thought you
> didn't care about facts, which is a good thing because I don't see too
> many in this quote.


Look harder. I don't see many accurate facts in what you write, with
the surprising exception of the response to that PS inquiry.

At least none that support this line about Pontiac
> using "the existing F body of the Chevrolet Camaro," much less your
> statement that the Firebird has always been a re-bodied Camaro. The
> Camaro and the Firebird both rolled out in the same year, 1967. So
> there was no "existing F body" prior to the first Firebird. With the
> exception of the engines and exterior and interior trim, the first gen
> Camaro and Firebird were the same car. (Oh yeah, Chevy had this thing
> at first about mono-leaf springs, too.) It's not even a chicken and
> egg thing; it's two eggs laid by the same chicken.


The Camaro came out before the Firebird. That's my whole point.

>
> All GM styling emanated from a central studio, so it would be
> inaccurate to credit either division with the styling.


Blah blah, tell me something I don't know

I have always
> seen a family resemblance between the curve of the first gen Cambird's
> rear fender and those of '65 Corvairs and Impalas, but then again '66
> and even more so '67 Tempests have the same curve, so it's probably
> more accurate to call it a GM thing than a Chevy thing.
>
> I am not familiar with the R&D of the first gen Cambirds, so I don't
> know who deserves the credit for the basic engineering, Chevy or
> Pontiac. You could research it if you care. Considering the Cambird
> was based on the Chevy II, and Pontiac had no Chevy II cognate at the
> time, I would guess that Chevy did most of the R&D.


As would I, since the Firebird was a variant of the Camaro.

>
> Anyway, to get back to your quote, it sounds like DeLorean was closer
> to the father of the Cambird than anyone at Chevy. My understanding is
> that Chevy thought it had the new Baby Boomer youth market covered with
> the six cylinder, rear-engined Corvair, and that when the Mustang
> rolled out Chevy was not particularly interested in developing a
> direct copycat. At the same time according to your own quote DeLorean
> WAS interested in offering a front-engined, V8 coupe to that market.
> Again it sounds like DeLorean was the prime mover, not anyone at Chevy.


So why did the Camaro come out before the Firebird? DeLorean wanted a
two-seater, but for time-to-market purposes, he used the existing Camaro
to deliver a competitive car in this segment.

It just galls you to be factually contradicted, doesn't it, Purveyor of
Inaccurate Information?

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

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Old 03-17-2005, 00:10   #2 (permalink)
one80out@hotmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: An Invitation...

Wound Up wrote:

>> Let's try this:  when you read something that I type, just imagine a


>> bunch of smileys after every sentence.  Maybe you'll sleep better,

and
>> you'll definitely have a lot more time for that "job search" your

wife
>> thinks you're conducting while she's at work all day.


> I have no trouble sleeping.  And be very careful with the rest of

that.

"Sleeping" and "passing out" are not the same thing.

> I don't see many accurate facts in what you write, with
> the surprising exception of the response to that PS inquiry.


That's probably because of your severe reading comprehension problem.
I don't see you responding to much of what I write without reading into
it a bunch of stuff that just isn't there. The problem is in that
muddled mess between your ears, not in what I type on this here
keyboard.

> The Camaro came out before the Firebird.  That's my whole point.


Liar. You had one point, and it was this: "The Firebird has always
been the 're-bodied Camaro.'" I responded that they were the same car,
developed at the same time, and that there was no "existing F body of
the Chevrolet Camaro" prior to the devopment of the Firebird. I will
give you credit for knowing that the Camaro was released 134 days prior
to the Firebird. I guess I had heard that before, but I had forgotten.
I have copied and pasted at the end of this post a paragraph from a
first gen Firebird fan site, with the particulars. It includes the
fact that Firebird development commenced in March 1966, and that at
that point the Camaro was so far along that it was just 60 days from
the start of production.

So this exchange boils down to semantics: was a
60-days-from-production Camaro an "existing F body . . . Camaro," such
that it would be accurate to call the Firebird a "re-bodied Camaro"?
Did a production Camaro exist at the time that the Firebird project
kicked off in March 1966? No. Did everything about the Firebird --
other than things like styling details, interiors, engines, and
suspension tuning -- derive from the Camaro project, as the Camaro
moved from 60 days short of production to a September 29, 1966,
roll-out? Yes. Does anybody other than a certain unemployed alcoholic
welfare queen care? No ****ing way.

>> All GM styling emanated from a central studio, so it  would be
>> inaccurate to  credit  either division with the styling.  


> Blah blah, tell me something I don't know


Ouch! Scorched again. Careful where you point that witty
flamethrower of yours, Wound Up. You might hurt somebody.

> It just galls you to be factually contradicted, doesn't it,
> Purveyor of Inaccurate Information?


Not even slightly, Wound Up. Try this: do an advanced Google Groups
search on author "180" or "Philly" and search for "thank" (as in "thank
you for the correction") or "thanks" and see how many hits you get.
There should be many. If anything could "gall" me it would be your
lying, repeatedly stating that I am rarely correct. But you're so
morally weak, stupid, and dishonest, and so persistent at revealing
these things in these groups, that it doesn't really bother me anymore.
Mostly you're just a creepy Usenet stalker. You really need to burn
that computer before it gets any worse.

180 Out

P.S. Here's the quote, from
http://tachrev.com/Web_Pages/1st_Gen_TA.html :

Using the same floor pan, cowl & sub frame as the Camaro and Chevy II,
the first Firebirds were known as '67 1/2's having been introduced late
in the model year. Pontiac started the F-body program in March of 1966,
forced by GM management to use the 60 day from production Camaro
engineering. Required to retain the Camaro front fenders and doors, the
Pontiac design and engineering staff, headed by John DeLorean,
transformed the F-body platform into a bonafide Pontiac. They added
Pontiac's own engine & drive trains, hood, tail panel, side marker
lights, and a one piece solid chrome combination bumper & grill "Bird
Beak". And that is how "Firebird One!" came to first arrive in dealer
show rooms on February 23, 1967. 134 days after Camaro, and 133 days
after Mercurys' new Cougar.

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Old 03-17-2005, 00:10   #3 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: An Invitation...

>>I have no trouble sleeping. ?And be very careful with the rest of
>
> that.
>
> "Sleeping" and "passing out" are not the same thing.


They are, in any case, but I've been doing a lot less of the latter
lately, not that I have to explain myself to you to begin with.


>>?I don't see many accurate facts in what you write, with
>>the surprising exception of the response to that PS inquiry.

>
>
> That's probably because of your severe reading comprehension problem.


I speak three languages fluently, also went to grad school, and have
scored well above the 90th percentile on every standardized test and
entrance exam I've ever taken. I don't think I have any problems with
reading comprehension.

> I don't see you responding to much of what I write without reading into
> it a bunch of stuff that just isn't there. The problem is in that
> muddled mess between your ears, not in what I type on this here
> keyboard


It amuses me to toy with you from time to time.

>
>>The Camaro came out before the Firebird. ?That's my whole point.

>
>
> Liar. You had one point, and it was this: "The Firebird has always
> been the 're-bodied Camaro.'"


Because it came out before the Camaro. Hence, the Firebird was based on
the existing Camaro. This is getting very old. How does that makes me
a liar? Because it was phrased differently? Unacceptable.

I responded that they were the same car,
> developed at the same time, and that there was no "existing F body of
> the Chevrolet Camaro" prior to the devopment of the Firebird. I will
> give you credit for knowing that the Camaro was released 134 days prior
> to the Firebird. I guess I had heard that before, but I had forgotten.


I guess so.

> I have copied and pasted at the end of this post a paragraph from a
> first gen Firebird fan site, with the particulars. It includes the
> fact that Firebird development commenced in March 1966, and that at
> that point the Camaro was so far along that it was just 60 days from
> the start of production.
>
> So this exchange boils down to semantics: was a
> 60-days-from-production Camaro an "existing F body . . . Camaro," such
> that it would be accurate to call the Firebird a "re-bodied Camaro"?
> Did a production Camaro exist at the time that the Firebird project
> kicked off in March 1966? No.


Why not? The car existed, it just hadn't hit showrooms yet. Your
interpretation is, as usual, limited to what you wish to believe.

Did everything about the Firebird --
> other than things like styling details, interiors, engines, and
> suspension tuning -- derive from the Camaro project, as the Camaro
> moved from 60 days short of production to a September 29, 1966,
> roll-out? Yes. Does anybody other than a certain unemployed alcoholic
> welfare queen care? No ****ing way.


Nice attempt at flaming me, but I'm not going to bite.

>
>
>>>All GM styling emanated from a central studio, so it ?would be
>>>inaccurate to ?credit ?either division with the styling. ?

>>

>
>>Blah blah, tell me something I don't know

>
>
> Ouch! Scorched again. Careful where you point that witty
> flamethrower of yours, Wound Up. You might hurt somebody.


I type very quickly, like I think, and this is just a mildly
entertaining diversion to me whilst I job-search, poke around the web
and whatnot. Frustrating you by poking holes in your arguments and
assertions has been just a break from reading endless ads and emails

>
>>It just galls you to be factually contradicted, doesn't it,
>>Purveyor of Inaccurate Information?

>
>
> Not even slightly, Wound Up. Try this: do an advanced Google Groups
> search on author "180" or "Philly" and search for "thank" (as in "thank
> you for the correction") or "thanks" and see how many hits you get.
> There should be many. If anything could "gall" me it would be your
> lying, repeatedly stating that I am rarely correct.


I'll take your word for it, because I don't want to waste my time. Your
posts are rarely as factually robust as you would have others believe.

Contradiction is not lying, unless the person you are contradicting
believes he speaks the unequivocal truth all the time. Hmm... we may
have something there. Try not to be so literal.

But you're so
> morally weak, stupid, and dishonest, and so persistent at revealing
> these things in these groups, that it doesn't really bother me anymore.
> Mostly you're just a creepy Usenet stalker. You really need to burn
> that computer before it gets any worse.


Oh, 180, you're going to make me cry. An arrogant lawyer calling into
question my morals. Calling me stupid when it is so obviously not the
truth. Dishonest? Why, because I dare contradict you? I just don't
understand how you ascribe dishonesty to me.

>
> 180 Out
>
> P.S. Here's the quote, from
> http://tachrev.com/Web_Pages/1st_Gen_TA.html :
>
> Using the same floor pan, cowl & sub frame as the Camaro and Chevy II,
> the first Firebirds were known as '67 1/2's having been introduced late
> in the model year. Pontiac started the F-body program in March of 1966,
> forced by GM management to use the 60 day from production Camaro
> engineering. Required to retain the Camaro front fenders and doors, the
> Pontiac design and engineering staff, headed by John DeLorean,
> transformed the F-body platform into a bonafide Pontiac. They added
> Pontiac's own engine & drive trains, hood, tail panel, side marker
> lights, and a one piece solid chrome combination bumper & grill "Bird
> Beak". And that is how "Firebird One!" came to first arrive in dealer
> show rooms on February 23, 1967. 134 days after Camaro, and 133 days
> after Mercurys' new Cougar.


Slightly different than what I had previously read, but essentially similar.

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2005, 00:10   #4 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: An Invitation...

Wound Up wrote:
>>> I have no trouble sleeping. ?And be very careful with the rest of

>>
>>
>> that.
>>
>> "Sleeping" and "passing out" are not the same thing.

>
>
> They are, in any case, but I've been doing a lot less of the latter
> lately, not that I have to explain myself to you to begin with.
>
>
>>> ?I don't see many accurate facts in what you write, with
>>> the surprising exception of the response to that PS inquiry.

>>
>>
>>
>> That's probably because of your severe reading comprehension problem.

>
>
> I speak three languages fluently, also went to grad school, and have
> scored well above the 90th percentile on every standardized test and
> entrance exam I've ever taken. I don't think I have any problems with
> reading comprehension.
>
>> I don't see you responding to much of what I write without reading into
>> it a bunch of stuff that just isn't there. The problem is in that
>> muddled mess between your ears, not in what I type on this here
>> keyboard

>
>
> It amuses me to toy with you from time to time.
>
>>
>>> The Camaro came out before the Firebird. ?That's my whole point.

>>
>>
>>
>> Liar. You had one point, and it was this: "The Firebird has always
>> been the 're-bodied Camaro.'"

>
>
> Because it came out before the Camaro. Hence, the Firebird was based on
> the existing Camaro. This is getting very old. How does that makes me
> a liar? Because it was phrased differently? Unacceptable.
>
> I responded that they were the same car,
>
>> developed at the same time, and that there was no "existing F body of
>> the Chevrolet Camaro" prior to the devopment of the Firebird. I will
>> give you credit for knowing that the Camaro was released 134 days prior
>> to the Firebird. I guess I had heard that before, but I had forgotten.

>
>
> I guess so.
>
>> I have copied and pasted at the end of this post a paragraph from a
>> first gen Firebird fan site, with the particulars. It includes the
>> fact that Firebird development commenced in March 1966, and that at
>> that point the Camaro was so far along that it was just 60 days from
>> the start of production.
>>
>> So this exchange boils down to semantics: was a
>> 60-days-from-production Camaro an "existing F body . . . Camaro," such
>> that it would be accurate to call the Firebird a "re-bodied Camaro"?
>> Did a production Camaro exist at the time that the Firebird project
>> kicked off in March 1966? No.

>
>
> Why not? The car existed, it just hadn't hit showrooms yet. Your
> interpretation is, as usual, limited to what you wish to believe.
>
> Did everything about the Firebird --
>
>> other than things like styling details, interiors, engines, and
>> suspension tuning -- derive from the Camaro project, as the Camaro
>> moved from 60 days short of production to a September 29, 1966,
>> roll-out? Yes. Does anybody other than a certain unemployed alcoholic
>> welfare queen care? No ****ing way.

>
>
> Nice attempt at flaming me, but I'm not going to bite.
>
>>
>>
>>>> All GM styling emanated from a central studio, so it ?would be
>>>> inaccurate to ?credit ?either division with the styling. ?
>>>
>>>

>>
>>> Blah blah, tell me something I don't know

>>
>>
>>
>> Ouch! Scorched again. Careful where you point that witty
>> flamethrower of yours, Wound Up. You might hurt somebody.

>
>
> I type very quickly, like I think, and this is just a mildly
> entertaining diversion to me whilst I job-search, poke around the web
> and whatnot. Frustrating you by poking holes in your arguments and
> assertions has been just a break from reading endless ads and emails
>
>>
>>> It just galls you to be factually contradicted, doesn't it,
>>> Purveyor of Inaccurate Information?

>>
>>
>>
>> Not even slightly, Wound Up. Try this: do an advanced Google Groups
>> search on author "180" or "Philly" and search for "thank" (as in "thank
>> you for the correction") or "thanks" and see how many hits you get.
>> There should be many. If anything could "gall" me it would be your
>> lying, repeatedly stating that I am rarely correct.

>
>
> I'll take your word for it, because I don't want to waste my time. Your
> posts are rarely as factually robust as you would have others believe.
>
> Contradiction is not lying, unless the person you are contradicting
> believes he speaks the unequivocal truth all the time. Hmm... we may
> have something there. Try not to be so literal.
>
> But you're so
>
>> morally weak, stupid, and dishonest, and so persistent at revealing
>> these things in these groups, that it doesn't really bother me anymore.
>> Mostly you're just a creepy Usenet stalker. You really need to burn
>> that computer before it gets any worse.

>
>
> Oh, 180, you're going to make me cry. An arrogant lawyer calling into
> question my morals. Calling me stupid when it is so obviously not the
> truth. Dishonest? Why, because I dare contradict you? I just don't
> understand how you ascribe dishonesty to me.
>
>>
>> 180 Out
>>
>> P.S. Here's the quote, from
>> http://tachrev.com/Web_Pages/1st_Gen_TA.html :
>>
>> Using the same floor pan, cowl & sub frame as the Camaro and Chevy II,
>> the first Firebirds were known as '67 1/2's having been introduced late
>> in the model year. Pontiac started the F-body program in March of 1966,
>> forced by GM management to use the 60 day from production Camaro
>> engineering. Required to retain the Camaro front fenders and doors, the
>> Pontiac design and engineering staff, headed by John DeLorean,
>> transformed the F-body platform into a bonafide Pontiac. They added
>> Pontiac's own engine & drive trains, hood, tail panel, side marker
>> lights, and a one piece solid chrome combination bumper & grill "Bird
>> Beak". And that is how "Firebird One!" came to first arrive in dealer
>> show rooms on February 23, 1967. 134 days after Camaro, and 133 days
>> after Mercurys' new Cougar.

>
>
> Slightly different than what I had previously read, but essentially
> similar.
>



--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

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