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Old 08-11-2005, 18:01   #1 (permalink)
ironrod
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
A sad state of affairs

You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
on the rust underneath. As expected, there were several areas where the
rust had eaten all the way through. The damage was pretty bad but very
localize. About a two to three inch strip at the bottoms of the sail panels
and a 1 inch strip around the bottom of the rear window.

Obviously, the only way to fix this kind of damage is to cut out the rusted
areas and weld in a new piece. This kind of work requires a body shop and a
skilled sheet metal man. So off I go to get an estimate on how much, first
stop Maaco; Maaco's excuse 'since they don't make skins for cars that old
it can't be fixed' It actually took the estimator about 15 minutes to get
this sentence out but that was the gist of it. Well so much for the cheap
approach. Next stop Harold's; one of only two body shops in Albuquerque
that still work with body solder. Now at least Harold was honest, he flat
didn't want to touch it, and said as much, I pressed him though and ask why?
He said the car would take too much time to fix & he would have to charge me
time and a half for his labor. Ok, says I, how many hours? 100 says
Harold. So lets work this out, it is going to take him two and a half man
weeks to cut and weld two sail panels and rear deck piece. What the hell is
he using to cut the steel with, a nail file? Very disappointed but
undeterred I go to third body shop. Rather than waste the estimators time I
go to the desk and state bluntly. "I have a car that two other body shops
don't want to touch. Would you be interested?" "No." just as bluntly.

Now all of today's disappointment underscores a distressing trend I have
noticed. For many years now there has been a tendency for auto repair to be
less about repairing and more about replacing. I have lost count of how
many people in this news group have replaced their entire alternator rather
than spend the extra time to repair it with the simple replacement of a
$4.00 set of brushes, the same is true for power window motors, electronic
engine sensors or any other damm thing that needs fixing, replace rather
than repair. What I hadn't realized until today that this lethargy had
worked its way into the body shop as well. Gone are the days when skilled
body men would use hammer and rasp to pound out the dents and smooth the
paint. Replaced by a new generation of kids whose idea of work doesn't
include the learning of any skill, the loss of any sweat nor the application
of much brain power. I can't really see how any nation can long survive if
the new generation of workers idea of work is to always take the path of
least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty. As
for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.


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Old 08-11-2005, 18:01   #2 (permalink)
Kathy and Erich Coiner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs

You need to find the right kind of body shop. They all specialize in
different things.
The Collision repair guys won't touch your project.

Find out where the hot rod crowd is getting work done. That will be a place
that knows how to work with rusty metal. But it won't be cheap.

Erich

"ironrod" <cmuza@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:29SKe.590029$cg1.50431@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
> Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
> on the rust underneath. As expected, there were several areas where the
> rust had eaten all the way through. The damage was pretty bad but very
> localize. About a two to three inch strip at the bottoms of the sail

panels
> and a 1 inch strip around the bottom of the rear window.
>
> Obviously, the only way to fix this kind of damage is to cut out the

rusted
> areas and weld in a new piece. This kind of work requires a body shop and

a
> skilled sheet metal man. So off I go to get an estimate on how much,

first
> stop Maaco; Maaco's excuse 'since they don't make skins for cars that old
> it can't be fixed' It actually took the estimator about 15 minutes to get
> this sentence out but that was the gist of it. Well so much for the cheap
> approach. Next stop Harold's; one of only two body shops in Albuquerque
> that still work with body solder. Now at least Harold was honest, he flat
> didn't want to touch it, and said as much, I pressed him though and ask

why?
> He said the car would take too much time to fix & he would have to charge

me
> time and a half for his labor. Ok, says I, how many hours? 100 says
> Harold. So lets work this out, it is going to take him two and a half man
> weeks to cut and weld two sail panels and rear deck piece. What the hell

is
> he using to cut the steel with, a nail file? Very disappointed but
> undeterred I go to third body shop. Rather than waste the estimators time

I
> go to the desk and state bluntly. "I have a car that two other body shops
> don't want to touch. Would you be interested?" "No." just as bluntly.
>
> Now all of today's disappointment underscores a distressing trend I have
> noticed. For many years now there has been a tendency for auto repair to

be
> less about repairing and more about replacing. I have lost count of how
> many people in this news group have replaced their entire alternator

rather
> than spend the extra time to repair it with the simple replacement of a
> $4.00 set of brushes, the same is true for power window motors, electronic
> engine sensors or any other damm thing that needs fixing, replace rather
> than repair. What I hadn't realized until today that this lethargy had
> worked its way into the body shop as well. Gone are the days when skilled
> body men would use hammer and rasp to pound out the dents and smooth the
> paint. Replaced by a new generation of kids whose idea of work doesn't
> include the learning of any skill, the loss of any sweat nor the

application
> of much brain power. I can't really see how any nation can long survive

if
> the new generation of workers idea of work is to always take the path of
> least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.

As
> for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
>
>



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Old 08-11-2005, 21:01   #3 (permalink)
cprice@here.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs


For the kind of money you are talking about you could buy your own mig
and hire a freelancer to come and work in your shop. I agree with the
'find out where the local rodders are getting their work done'. Even
more, some of those guys will do projects on the side to make some extra
cash.


Kathy and Erich Coiner wrote:

> You need to find the right kind of body shop. They all specialize in
> different things.
> The Collision repair guys won't touch your project.
>
> Find out where the hot rod crowd is getting work done. That will be a place
> that knows how to work with rusty metal. But it won't be cheap.
>
> Erich
>
> "ironrod" <cmuza@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:29SKe.590029$cg1.50431@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>>You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
>>Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
>>on the rust underneath. As expected, there were several areas where the
>>rust had eaten all the way through. The damage was pretty bad but very
>>localize. About a two to three inch strip at the bottoms of the sail

>
> panels
>
>>and a 1 inch strip around the bottom of the rear window.
>>
>>Obviously, the only way to fix this kind of damage is to cut out the

>
> rusted
>
>>areas and weld in a new piece. This kind of work requires a body shop and

>
> a
>
>>skilled sheet metal man. So off I go to get an estimate on how much,

>
> first
>
>>stop Maaco; Maaco's excuse 'since they don't make skins for cars that old
>>it can't be fixed' It actually took the estimator about 15 minutes to get
>>this sentence out but that was the gist of it. Well so much for the cheap
>>approach. Next stop Harold's; one of only two body shops in Albuquerque
>>that still work with body solder. Now at least Harold was honest, he flat
>>didn't want to touch it, and said as much, I pressed him though and ask

>
> why?
>
>>He said the car would take too much time to fix & he would have to charge

>
> me
>
>>time and a half for his labor. Ok, says I, how many hours? 100 says
>>Harold. So lets work this out, it is going to take him two and a half man
>>weeks to cut and weld two sail panels and rear deck piece. What the hell

>
> is
>
>>he using to cut the steel with, a nail file? Very disappointed but
>>undeterred I go to third body shop. Rather than waste the estimators time

>
> I
>
>>go to the desk and state bluntly. "I have a car that two other body shops
>>don't want to touch. Would you be interested?" "No." just as bluntly.
>>
>>Now all of today's disappointment underscores a distressing trend I have
>>noticed. For many years now there has been a tendency for auto repair to

>
> be
>
>>less about repairing and more about replacing. I have lost count of how
>>many people in this news group have replaced their entire alternator

>
> rather
>
>>than spend the extra time to repair it with the simple replacement of a
>>$4.00 set of brushes, the same is true for power window motors, electronic
>>engine sensors or any other damm thing that needs fixing, replace rather
>>than repair. What I hadn't realized until today that this lethargy had
>>worked its way into the body shop as well. Gone are the days when skilled
>>body men would use hammer and rasp to pound out the dents and smooth the
>>paint. Replaced by a new generation of kids whose idea of work doesn't
>>include the learning of any skill, the loss of any sweat nor the

>
> application
>
>>of much brain power. I can't really see how any nation can long survive

>
> if
>
>>the new generation of workers idea of work is to always take the path of
>>least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.

>
> As
>
>>for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
>>
>>

>
>
>

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Old 08-11-2005, 22:01   #4 (permalink)
Ken Zwyers
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs

Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways. When is
the last time anyone had their TV repaired? It costs less to get a new one
than to get it fixed.

"ironrod" <cmuza@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:29SKe.590029$cg1.50431@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> You might remember when I posted a few months back about my 73 Eldorado.
> Just yesterday I decided to take the vinal roof of the car and get to work
> on the rust underneath. As expected, there were several areas where the
> rust had eaten all the way through. The damage was pretty bad but very
> localize. About a two to three inch strip at the bottoms of the sail

panels
> and a 1 inch strip around the bottom of the rear window.
>
> Obviously, the only way to fix this kind of damage is to cut out the

rusted
> areas and weld in a new piece. This kind of work requires a body shop and

a
> skilled sheet metal man. So off I go to get an estimate on how much,

first
> stop Maaco; Maaco's excuse 'since they don't make skins for cars that old
> it can't be fixed' It actually took the estimator about 15 minutes to get
> this sentence out but that was the gist of it. Well so much for the cheap
> approach. Next stop Harold's; one of only two body shops in Albuquerque
> that still work with body solder. Now at least Harold was honest, he flat
> didn't want to touch it, and said as much, I pressed him though and ask

why?
> He said the car would take too much time to fix & he would have to charge

me
> time and a half for his labor. Ok, says I, how many hours? 100 says
> Harold. So lets work this out, it is going to take him two and a half man
> weeks to cut and weld two sail panels and rear deck piece. What the hell

is
> he using to cut the steel with, a nail file? Very disappointed but
> undeterred I go to third body shop. Rather than waste the estimators time

I
> go to the desk and state bluntly. "I have a car that two other body shops
> don't want to touch. Would you be interested?" "No." just as bluntly.
>
> Now all of today's disappointment underscores a distressing trend I have
> noticed. For many years now there has been a tendency for auto repair to

be
> less about repairing and more about replacing. I have lost count of how
> many people in this news group have replaced their entire alternator

rather
> than spend the extra time to repair it with the simple replacement of a
> $4.00 set of brushes, the same is true for power window motors, electronic
> engine sensors or any other damm thing that needs fixing, replace rather
> than repair. What I hadn't realized until today that this lethargy had
> worked its way into the body shop as well. Gone are the days when skilled
> body men would use hammer and rasp to pound out the dents and smooth the
> paint. Replaced by a new generation of kids whose idea of work doesn't
> include the learning of any skill, the loss of any sweat nor the

application
> of much brain power. I can't really see how any nation can long survive

if
> the new generation of workers idea of work is to always take the path of
> least resistance and turn tail and run at the first sign of difficulty.

As
> for me, I guess it's time to buy another book and learn autobody repair.
>
>



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Old 08-11-2005, 23:01   #5 (permalink)
WindsorFox[SS]
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs

Kathy and Erich Coiner wrote:
> You need to find the right kind of body shop. They all specialize in
> different things.
> The Collision repair guys won't touch your project.
>
> Find out where the hot rod crowd is getting work done. That will be a place
> that knows how to work with rusty metal. But it won't be cheap.
>
> Erich
>


Or even goto a welder/sheet metal fabricator rather than a body guy.

--

"Gullible is a misdemeanor - stupid is a felony...
clueless gets you committed..." - JG
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Old 08-12-2005, 00:01   #6 (permalink)
Big Al
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs


"Kathy and Erich Coiner" <kathy.coiner@gte.net> wrote in message
news:0oSKe.16588$0d.6375@trnddc04...
> You need to find the right kind of body shop. They all specialize in
> different things.
> The Collision repair guys won't touch your project.
>
> Find out where the hot rod crowd is getting work done. That will be a
> place
> that knows how to work with rusty metal. But it won't be cheap.
>
> Erich
>

For grins, call:

Touch Of Class Auto Repair
17 Kirkland Rd
Silver City, NM
(505) 388-1105

Ask for Ronnie and see what he says.

I'm guessing you need to find someone like my neighbor who does this stuff
out of love.

Al in Tucson.





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Old 08-12-2005, 04:01   #7 (permalink)
SVTKate
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs


<cprice@here.com> wrote in message news:42FC0F57.9010206@here.com...
:
: For the kind of money you are talking about you could buy your own mig
: and hire a freelancer to come and work in your shop. I agree with the
: 'find out where the local rodders are getting their work done'. Even
: more, some of those guys will do projects on the side to make some extra
: cash.
:

Yeabut -
The guy who does it "on the side" also had a full time job, a family, his
own honey-do list and a life.
Not only are you talking money, but TIME. The "on the side guy" will have
your car for a year.

And the guy that works out of his garage, just ask ol Spike how THAT one
goes.

I agree, there has GOT to be someone who does restorations near you.
Maaco would hav just filled the holes with filler anyway. The only reason
they don't touch is is that they cannot warranty it and they know you will
be back.
Cancer rust is damn frustrating to repair and it invilves allot of cutting
and replacing of sheet metal. These days, they use panels to replace because
it's a better repair for people that want their car "like new again"

Why not turn it into a demolition derby car and let it go out with a bang?


Kate


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Old 08-12-2005, 04:01   #8 (permalink)
SVTKate
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs


"Ken Zwyers" <zeker@anet.com> wrote in message
news:E8-dnT1EgfXdt2HfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
: Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways. When is
: the last time anyone had their TV repaired? It costs less to get a new
one
: than to get it fixed.
:

I had a stereo repaired several years ago, cost half as much to have it
fixed as to replace it.
Later I learned that all the guy had to do was to remove the outer cover and
clean the dang eye on the CD player. Really torqued me, at $125.

The other major thing I see, since I AM the type to fix things, is the
unavailability of parts.

In the case of this car, the pieces that have rotted sound like they also
hold windows. Fabricating sheet metal to fit that space and still be strong
is damn near impossible for the common guy, There are complex curves and
angles that have got to be right. The investment in equipment (presses and
welders) alone would be phenominal, just so you could get the right curves
and angles for the windows to mount on without popping them.

As for other things, like alternators.
Where I lve, you can't find simple food items, like a Tri Tip. Imagine if I
tried to find brushes for an alternator.
We drove 60 miles the other day (just abouve Mississippi) to a wrecking yard
for a damn tail light for our pickup. (hubs bumped a pole) As it turned out,
several things decided to take a dump on the truck last week, so we got a
lock actuator, the lens and a vacuum pump. $100 for the lot.

There is NOTHING here that you can get without it being a hassle. When you
call wrecking yards, they all send you to the dealership and have what
appears to be no central locator.

HOW ABOUT - find one at a wrecking yard that is NOT rusted, and have them
cut the sections you need. Common practise and then you could get a shop to
fix it for you.
It would be a search, but you might find soemthing. Prolly one that did not
have vinyl.

Kate


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Old 08-12-2005, 05:01   #9 (permalink)
Backyard Mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs

It's sad but true... but what you DONT mention is that new 27" TV costs
much less in numbers, let alone % of income than the one you want to
fix. And probably has a better picture.

Kate: I guarantee NAPA has the parts... maybe not in your area, but in
their distribution chain...and what some people dont think of is the guys
who supply the auto repair 'garages'... sure's he!! aint autozone!

Ken: When I embarked on my car supplier role for my four boys, I
determined that I couldnt afford to keep buying $1500 Fox 2.3's at the
rate they were going through them {EVEN SAVING THEIR LIVES OR FROM
SERIOUS INJURY IN THE BARGAIN.}

And later, giving them a hand up on driving something exotic like
Xr4ti's.

So that was when I invested in a couple simple tools.

a 4 inch angle grinder
and
a gas wire welder

Those were the core but, of course, I had to put out a lot in specialty
tools from Eastwood. Oh, if I'd only been smarter! I never used ANY of
them past the first disappointment!

But I learned a lot and was able to graft rear quarters for the Merkurs,
and an SVO hood scoop onto an 88 hood before handing them off to the
"Pro's" for finishing. {but that's a different story}`

Like Kate says, what you want to do is search for the unrusted piece...
even paying shipping. Learn how to weld on the scraps. Make SURE to
engineer , measure and measure again before you make that first cut.



"SVTKate" <whoever@whatever.complaint.dept> wrote in
news:nc%Ke.4615$Je.4165@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:

>
> "Ken Zwyers" <zeker@anet.com> wrote in message
> news:E8-dnT1EgfXdt2HfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>: Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways.
>: When is the last time anyone had their TV repaired? It costs less to
>: get a new
> one
>: than to get it fixed.
>:
>
> I had a stereo repaired several years ago, cost half as much to have
> it fixed as to replace it.
> Later I learned that all the guy had to do was to remove the outer
> cover and clean the dang eye on the CD player. Really torqued me, at
> $125.
>
> The other major thing I see, since I AM the type to fix things, is the
> unavailability of parts.
>


> As for other things, like alternators.
> Where I lve, you can't find simple food items, like a Tri Tip. Imagine
> if I tried to find brushes for an alternator.
> We drove 60 miles the other day (just abouve Mississippi) to a
> wrecking yard for a damn tail light for our pickup. (hubs bumped a
> pole) As it turned out, several things decided to take a dump on the
> truck last week, so we got a lock actuator, the lens and a vacuum
> pump. $100 for the lot.
>
> There is NOTHING here that you can get without it being a hassle. When
> you call wrecking yards, they all send you to the dealership and have
> what appears to be no central locator.
>
> HOW ABOUT - find one at a wrecking yard that is NOT rusted, and have
> them cut the sections you need. Common practise and then you could get
> a shop to fix it for you.
> It would be a search, but you might find soemthing. Prolly one that
> did not have vinyl.
>
> Kate
>
>
>


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Old 08-12-2005, 12:01   #10 (permalink)
Me
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A sad state of affairs

It's called "Greed" and it permeates every facet of life. I had a similar
experience with an RCA TV. (Buy RCA, American made quality) Had to have the
pins in the power supply re-soldered. (A common problem) The guy I bought it
from is also a tech and I usually have him work on my stuff, but he was
unavailable. I took it to a shop and they charged me $350.00. When I finally
made contact with my friend, he told me it was a common problem and a 1/2
hour job. The shop ripped me off big time. The TV lasted less than another
year. When it went out, I s**t canned it and bought a Sony.
Anymore, it's not what is fair and reasonable, it's what is the maximum I
can get away with charging. Body and fender work in no different. The last
place you want to take it is to a collision repair specialist. Most of these
shops are too busy ripping off insurance companies, which in turn, pass the
rip-off to the clients (Us) in the form of higher rates.



"SVTKate" <whoever@whatever.complaint.dept> wrote in message
news:nc%Ke.4615$Je.4165@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "Ken Zwyers" <zeker@anet.com> wrote in message
> news:E8-dnT1EgfXdt2HfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> : Unfortunately, we've become a disposable society in so many ways. When
> is
> : the last time anyone had their TV repaired? It costs less to get a new
> one
> : than to get it fixed.
> :
>
> I had a stereo repaired several years ago, cost half as much to have it
> fixed as to replace it.
> Later I learned that all the guy had to do was to remove the outer cover
> and
> clean the dang eye on the CD player. Really torqued me, at $125.
>
> The other major thing I see, since I AM the type to fix things, is the
> unavailability of parts.
>
> In the case of this car, the pieces that have rotted sound like they also
> hold windows. Fabricating sheet metal to fit that space and still be
> strong
> is damn near impossible for the common guy, There are complex curves and
> angles that have got to be right. The investment in equipment (presses and
> welders) alone would be phenominal, just so you could get the right curves
> and angles for the windows to mount on without popping them.
>
> As for other things, like alternators.
> Where I lve, you can't find simple food items, like a Tri Tip. Imagine if
> I
> tried to find brushes for an alternator.
> We drove 60 miles the other day (just abouve Mississippi) to a wrecking
> yard
> for a damn tail light for our pickup. (hubs bumped a pole) As it turned
> out,
> several things decided to take a dump on the truck last week, so we got a
> lock actuator, the lens and a vacuum pump. $100 for the lot.
>
> There is NOTHING here that you can get without it being a hassle. When you
> call wrecking yards, they all send you to the dealership and have what
> appears to be no central locator.
>
> HOW ABOUT - find one at a wrecking yard that is NOT rusted, and have them
> cut the sections you need. Common practise and then you could get a shop
> to
> fix it for you.
> It would be a search, but you might find soemthing. Prolly one that did
> not
> have vinyl.
>
> Kate
>
>



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