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Old 07-28-2005, 12:01   #1 (permalink)
one80out@hotmail.com
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Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

Background: This is the fourth edition of Popular Hot Rodding's EMC.
This year it's stroker big blocks to a max of 514 ci. The engines were
to have been built by approximately mid-July. Then all the entrants are
to meet at a dyno facility, do some warmup pulls, then do three pulls
for the money. Scoring is based not on peak output. Rather, the hp is
recorded at various rpm points from 2500 to 6500, added, and divided by
the total number of samples. The same for torque. The two averages
are added for a final score. So a 650 hp average and a 600 lb-ft
average would make a 1250 score.

The rules require the use of 92 octane gas, but there's no penalty for
massive amounts of ping, other than a DNF, and all the front-runners
last year rattled like crazy. Heads and valve trains must be OE-like
-- e.g., no 18 degree heads, no shaft rockers for Chevys. The 6500 rpm
cut-off makes any higher rpm's pointless.

The current Popular Hot Rodding has a long story collecting blurbs from
each entrant who cared to give one. Just about everyone's going square
or way undersquare. Everyone's running 12.5:1 CR or worse (or
better?). But here's one build that's reaaally different, and I
thought someone might want to comment on it:

"The redo is a 4.485 stroke by 4.270 bore with a 400cc oval-port head,
99cc chambers, and a steamy inverted intake lobe cam with .744 lift and
254 at .050, and a big smoothie exhaust lobe around 296 at .050 with
very low lift at .580. Lobe centers are very unusual at 126 degrees
because my new compression ratio is 15:1. I can make this thing crank
170 psi and it will need to keep pressure low until it gets up a little
in the revs. . . . Scores are going to be 1,294 with a 644 torque
average and a 659 hp average."

This is a Chevy motor, if that matters. The builder is Dan Crower,
Bruce Crower's son.

It's that cam that gets me. Well, a 15:1 CR for pump gas gets me too.
But these cam specs: 254/296 @ .050, .744/.580, 126 LSA. I have
never seen numbers like these. What's going on here? (I've never seen
a 4.270 x 4.485 engine either, at least not since the 1930's.) And
what is an "inverted lobe"?

180 Out

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Old 07-28-2005, 12:01   #2 (permalink)
Big Al
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05


<one80out@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122574166.431027.264180@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Background: This is the fourth edition of Popular Hot Rodding's EMC.
> This year it's stroker big blocks to a max of 514 ci. The engines were
> to have been built by approximately mid-July. Then all the entrants are
> to meet at a dyno facility, do some warmup pulls, then do three pulls
> for the money. Scoring is based not on peak output. Rather, the hp is
> recorded at various rpm points from 2500 to 6500, added, and divided by
> the total number of samples. The same for torque. The two averages
> are added for a final score. So a 650 hp average and a 600 lb-ft
> average would make a 1250 score.
>
> The rules require the use of 92 octane gas, but there's no penalty for
> massive amounts of ping, other than a DNF, and all the front-runners
> last year rattled like crazy. Heads and valve trains must be OE-like
> -- e.g., no 18 degree heads, no shaft rockers for Chevys. The 6500 rpm
> cut-off makes any higher rpm's pointless.
>
> The current Popular Hot Rodding has a long story collecting blurbs from
> each entrant who cared to give one. Just about everyone's going square
> or way undersquare. Everyone's running 12.5:1 CR or worse (or
> better?). But here's one build that's reaaally different, and I
> thought someone might want to comment on it:
>
> "The redo is a 4.485 stroke by 4.270 bore with a 400cc oval-port head,
> 99cc chambers, and a steamy inverted intake lobe cam with .744 lift and
> 254 at .050, and a big smoothie exhaust lobe around 296 at .050 with
> very low lift at .580. Lobe centers are very unusual at 126 degrees
> because my new compression ratio is 15:1. I can make this thing crank
> 170 psi and it will need to keep pressure low until it gets up a little
> in the revs. . . . Scores are going to be 1,294 with a 644 torque
> average and a 659 hp average."
>
> This is a Chevy motor, if that matters. The builder is Dan Crower,
> Bruce Crower's son.
>
> It's that cam that gets me. Well, a 15:1 CR for pump gas gets me too.
> But these cam specs: 254/296 @ .050, .744/.580, 126 LSA. I have
> never seen numbers like these. What's going on here? (I've never seen
> a 4.270 x 4.485 engine either, at least not since the 1930's.) And
> what is an "inverted lobe"?
>
> 180 Out



Got a link to this?

Al # 35


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Old 07-28-2005, 13:01   #3 (permalink)
one80out@hotmail.com
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

No, the story's available in dead tree only, in the September PHR; look
for a '69 Camaro on the cover. (Imagine that, a '69 Camaro on the
cover of a hot rod mag!) PHR usually puts its stories on line after a
month or two.

So can you 'splain what that cam's doing?

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Old 07-28-2005, 13:01   #4 (permalink)
one80out@hotmail.com
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

Hey Al:

Here's an entrant after your own heart:

"I've been building engines since I graduated high school, which is 36
years now. I enter to win, however, it's mainly for self-gratification
'cause I don't have the capital. . . . I do believe that given the same
amount of money, I am the best. Again, my entry is driven by cost;
it's a big-block Ford because it wil take me the least amount of funds
to make the most horsepower and bang for the buck. Given an endless
supply of dollars, I would have chosen a 440-based Chrysler. Winning
peak horsepowerr will probably be in hte 820 range with a score of
around 1,280 points."

This sounds like you all over, except the Mopar part anyway. (We allll
know about the Rat-based race car.)

180 Out

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Old 07-28-2005, 14:01   #5 (permalink)
Nosey
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

one80out@hotmail.com wrote:
> Background: This is the fourth edition of Popular Hot Rodding's EMC.
> This year it's stroker big blocks to a max of 514 ci. The engines
> were to have been built by approximately mid-July. Then all the
> entrants are to meet at a dyno facility, do some warmup pulls, then
> do three pulls for the money. Scoring is based not on peak output.
> Rather, the hp is recorded at various rpm points from 2500 to 6500,
> added, and divided by the total number of samples. The same for
> torque. The two averages are added for a final score. So a 650 hp
> average and a 600 lb-ft average would make a 1250 score.


It sounds like a piss-poor scoring method to me. Take the horsepower figures
out of the equation and it becomes a valid comparison.


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Old 07-28-2005, 17:01   #6 (permalink)
one80out@hotmail.com
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

The original intent was to test and compete with engines that were
close to what the average Joe might run on the street. The scoring
formula therefore concentrated on "area under the curve," rather than
on some gaudy 8 gazillion hp @ 10 bazillion rpm peak number only.

Like any form of motorsport at the highest levels, the winning efforts
have left those intentions far behind. Now the top engines run so much
compression they rattle like bolts in a coffee can and would be
unlikely to last a hundred miles in a street car. The heads and
pistons are coated with all manner of expensive goo. Now it looks like
these strange undersquare bore and stroke combos have the edge. If Dan
Crower is successful with his 254/296 @ .050, .744/.580, 126 LSA cam,
then others will be following suit.

Who knows, though? Maybe exotically coated, undersquare engines with
weird dual cam grinds are the hot ticket for the street. Maybe the EMC
is charting the course for the next decade of hot rodding.

Personally, I think the EMC could have a greater chance of doing that
if it would rein in this detonation thing, though. A 15:1 engine, or
even a 12.5:1, tells me nothing about what I could do with a street
engine. Cam choice and most everything else turns on the CR.

180 Out

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Old 07-28-2005, 23:01   #7 (permalink)
Big Al
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05


<one80out@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122579821.385650.99790@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hey Al:
>
> Here's an entrant after your own heart:
>
> "I've been building engines since I graduated high school, which is 36
> years now. I enter to win, however, it's mainly for self-gratification
> 'cause I don't have the capital. . . . I do believe that given the same
> amount of money, I am the best. Again, my entry is driven by cost;
> it's a big-block Ford because it wil take me the least amount of funds
> to make the most horsepower and bang for the buck. Given an endless
> supply of dollars, I would have chosen a 440-based Chrysler. Winning
> peak horsepowerr will probably be in hte 820 range with a score of
> around 1,280 points."
>
> This sounds like you all over, except the Mopar part anyway. (We allll
> know about the Rat-based race car.)
>
> 180 Out
>


Sounds like Pat. He says he can get more HP out of a big Ford than any other
engine, at a set dollar amount. His 557 and 460 prove it. Pat also has a 750
HP 351 Cleveland. He keeps threatening to stuff it in the Camaro. BTW: Pat's
514 is not a low buck engine. Has Oliver rods, Crankshaft Co. crank, $$$
heads and so on. My BBC is the same except it has cheap Dart Pro1 heads. My
low buck BBC project is junk compared to Pat's Fords. You can't build a
$1,000 BBC that will come close to a $1,000 Ford.

With endless money a Hemi would be King. Guess that's why they are in all
the AA/F cars.

Way OT here, but do you guys know about Chevy's new crate BB? It's a
monster:)

Al # 35


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Old 07-29-2005, 00:01   #8 (permalink)
Whole Lotta Tom
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Re: Check this wild build style for Engine Masters Challenge '05

Big Al wrote:
> <one80out@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122579821.385650.99790@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Hey Al:
>>
>> Here's an entrant after your own heart:
>>
>> "I've been building engines since I graduated high school, which is
>> 36 years now. I enter to win, however, it's mainly for
>> self-gratification 'cause I don't have the capital. . . . I do
>> believe that given the same amount of money, I am the best. Again,
>> my entry is driven by cost;
>> it's a big-block Ford because it wil take me the least amount of
>> funds
>> to make the most horsepower and bang for the buck. Given an endless
>> supply of dollars, I would have chosen a 440-based Chrysler. Winning
>> peak horsepowerr will probably be in hte 820 range with a score of
>> around 1,280 points."
>>
>> This sounds like you all over, except the Mopar part anyway. (We
>> allll know about the Rat-based race car.)
>>
>> 180 Out
>>

>
> Sounds like Pat. He says he can get more HP out of a big Ford than
> any other engine, at a set dollar amount. His 557 and 460 prove it.
> Pat also has a 750 HP 351 Cleveland. He keeps threatening to stuff it
> in the Camaro. BTW: Pat's 514 is not a low buck engine. Has Oliver
> rods, Crankshaft Co. crank, $$$ heads and so on. My BBC is the same
> except it has cheap Dart Pro1 heads. My low buck BBC project is junk
> compared to Pat's Fords. You can't build a $1,000 BBC that will come
> close to a $1,000 Ford.



I would love to know what mods Pat has done the the Cleve, head block crank
etc, and what cam, induction, everything else...

>
> With endless money a Hemi would be King. Guess that's why they are in
> all the AA/F cars.
>
> Way OT here, but do you guys know about Chevy's new crate BB? It's a
> monster:)
>
> Al # 35


--


--
Tom

My diesel truck runs on used veg oil!
http://www.geocities.com/styleline58/main.html

My 1958 Ford
http://www.geocities.com/styleline58/

Visit the Cleveland Engine Forum
http://www.351cleveland.net

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unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you
would not hear of that party again.... There is a tiny splinter group,
of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H.L.
Hunt...a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician
or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they
are stupid."

--President Dwight D. Eisenhower


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