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Old 02-05-2006, 06:01   #1 (permalink)
ladeeda
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Posts: n/a
Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
the process of replacing a waterpump.

I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.

Anyone up to the challenge?

Thanks

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Old 02-05-2006, 09:01   #2 (permalink)
Advocate
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Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor


"ladeeda" <email@lice.blow> wrote in message
news:ds4sf601a7r@enews3.newsguy.com...
> My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
> of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
> the process of replacing a waterpump.
>
> I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
> properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
> I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
> rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.
>
> Anyone up to the challenge?
>
> Thanks


Are you or are you not a welder? It's not as easy as "I have seen welders
work and think..."


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Old 02-05-2006, 09:01   #3 (permalink)
Ted
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Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

Welding is something that looks easy because a pro can do it, much like
changing a water pump without destroying an engine block.
"ladeeda" <email@lice.blow> wrote in message
news:ds4sf601a7r@enews3.newsguy.com...
> My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
> of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
> the process of replacing a waterpump.
>
> I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
> properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
> I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
> rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.
>
> Anyone up to the challenge?
>
> Thanks
>



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Old 02-05-2006, 12:01   #4 (permalink)
Jim Warman
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Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

I'd be interested in seeing what kind of cast iron we could "knock off" an
engine block during water pump replacement.....

Anyway.... "back in the day" before thin wall casting, it wasn't unheard of
to see a block or manifold that had been welded. The 265 Chev (which grew up
to be the 350) was prety much the first production thin wall block... we saw
less and less in the way of welding on these since they are a bit more
delicate to work with than their progenitors. I must say that none of this
type of welding was ever done to attach one piece of cast to another.... it
was done to repair stress cracks and similar problems.

The requirements are very simple indeed.... We start with a clean block and
"nasty bit".... this doesn't stop at free of rust and dirt since cast iron
is porous... we'll need to be sure to clean it well to avoid any inclusions.
Once we have the metal prepped, we'll need to decide how to grind the pieces
to ensure adequate penetration..... without beveling, our weld will be like
beauty - only skin deep.

Next, we take our handy dandy "rosebud" torch tip and heat everyting up to
about 500 or so degrees F.... IIRC, you can take it right up to a lttle over
1000 degrees, but I wouldn't go any hotter..... You can get one of your
buddies to maintain the parts at this temp while you are welding it.... you
don't want it cooling off during the welding process.

Of course, we had to leave the parent metal and the nasty bit quite thick to
ensure proper alignment so we'll need a pretty hefty DC welder (an AC buzz
box just wont do).... something that can deliver about 300 amps or so should
be good. Then, we can take a high nickel electrode from a new, unopened
package or one that has been properly stored (if the flux gets any moisture
in it, it will fingernail from the heat of welding and wont shield the weld
adequately..... the weld will be brittle or weak and contain inclusions).

It wont be long after we get the rod into the stinger that we realize
there's a bit more to this welding thing than poking in the general area or
our desires and the welder makes it look easy because he does this sort of
stuff day in and day out....

So... eventually, we get this nasty bit joined back onto the parent piece
with what appears to be a large wad of used chewing gum...... we grind it
all down nice and use a die grinder to hog out all the inclusions we can
see. We can reduce the amperage on our welder, select a thinner electrode,
have our bud reheat the metal to 500 or so degrees F, and cap the
inclusions....... the bubble gum doesn't look quite so bad this time and
it's easier to grind the stuff off and it even almost nearly just about
looks OK.

After we pack up the welder and the oxy-acetylene rig and pull the roof off
a few brews congratulating ourselves on a job well done, things may be cool
enough to reassemble. We get to the bolt closest to the "ex-nasty bit" and
torque it to spec..... but, wait..... did I hear a little "POP" noise???
Hmmmm, better back this bolt out and take a peak.......

SOB..... our "ex-nasty bit" has turned into a new nasty bit. We pick it up
off the floor and notice that our weld is good since the new nasty bit broke
off right beside the weld...

About that time, we stroll nonchalantly into the house and look in the
yellow pages under "auto salvage" to find a good engine core.

Disclaimer.... the preceding piece was written to entertain, amuse and
inform..... no derision was intended.



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Old 02-05-2006, 13:01   #5 (permalink)
Backyard Mechanic
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote:


> Disclaimer.... the preceding piece was written to entertain, amuse and
> inform..... no derision was intended.


Exactly... as a 50 year veteran of the amateur welding wars; I might
attempt it, if my wife had a commercial kiln that was big enough to hold
the block to start out with.

Welding modern thin body panels is a breeze, in comparison.

--
Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!
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Old 02-05-2006, 15:01   #6 (permalink)
351CJ
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Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor


"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:ftsFf.171379$6K2.159888@edtnps90...
> I'd be interested in seeing what kind of cast iron we could "knock off" an
> engine block during water pump replacement.....
>
> Anyway.... "back in the day" before thin wall casting, it wasn't unheard
> of to see a block or manifold that had been welded. The 265 Chev (which
> grew up to be the 350) was prety much the first production thin wall
> block... we saw less and less in the way of welding on these since they
> are a bit more delicate to work with than their progenitors. I must say
> that none of this type of welding was ever done to attach one piece of
> cast to another.... it was done to repair stress cracks and similar
> problems.
>
> The requirements are very simple indeed.... We start with a clean block
> and "nasty bit".... this doesn't stop at free of rust and dirt since cast
> iron is porous... we'll need to be sure to clean it well to avoid any
> inclusions. Once we have the metal prepped, we'll need to decide how to
> grind the pieces to ensure adequate penetration..... without beveling, our
> weld will be like beauty - only skin deep.
>
> Next, we take our handy dandy "rosebud" torch tip and heat everyting up to
> about 500 or so degrees F.... IIRC, you can take it right up to a lttle
> over 1000 degrees, but I wouldn't go any hotter..... You can get one of
> your buddies to maintain the parts at this temp while you are welding
> it.... you don't want it cooling off during the welding process.
>
> Of course, we had to leave the parent metal and the nasty bit quite thick
> to ensure proper alignment so we'll need a pretty hefty DC welder (an AC
> buzz box just wont do).... something that can deliver about 300 amps or so
> should be good. Then, we can take a high nickel electrode from a new,
> unopened package or one that has been properly stored (if the flux gets
> any moisture in it, it will fingernail from the heat of welding and wont
> shield the weld adequately..... the weld will be brittle or weak and
> contain inclusions).
>
> It wont be long after we get the rod into the stinger that we realize
> there's a bit more to this welding thing than poking in the general area
> or our desires and the welder makes it look easy because he does this sort
> of stuff day in and day out....
>
> So... eventually, we get this nasty bit joined back onto the parent piece
> with what appears to be a large wad of used chewing gum...... we grind it
> all down nice and use a die grinder to hog out all the inclusions we can
> see. We can reduce the amperage on our welder, select a thinner electrode,
> have our bud reheat the metal to 500 or so degrees F, and cap the
> inclusions....... the bubble gum doesn't look quite so bad this time and
> it's easier to grind the stuff off and it even almost nearly just about
> looks OK.
>
> After we pack up the welder and the oxy-acetylene rig and pull the roof
> off a few brews congratulating ourselves on a job well done, things may be
> cool enough to reassemble. We get to the bolt closest to the "ex-nasty
> bit" and torque it to spec..... but, wait..... did I hear a little "POP"
> noise??? Hmmmm, better back this bolt out and take a peak.......
>
> SOB..... our "ex-nasty bit" has turned into a new nasty bit. We pick it up
> off the floor and notice that our weld is good since the new nasty bit
> broke off right beside the weld...
>
> About that time, we stroll nonchalantly into the house and look in the
> yellow pages under "auto salvage" to find a good engine core.
>
> Disclaimer.... the preceding piece was written to entertain, amuse and
> inform..... no derision was intended.
>
>
>


Well done Jim, thank you very much...


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Old 02-05-2006, 21:01   #7 (permalink)
Bob
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Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor


----- Original Message -----
From: "ladeeda" <email@lice.blow>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.ford,alt.trucks.ford
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:44 AM
Subject: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor


> My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
> of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
> the process of replacing a waterpump.
>
> I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
> properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
> I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
> rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.
>
> Anyone up to the challenge?
>
> Thanks
>


Like everyone else says, welding cast iron is not exactly a beginners
project. I'd be damn surprised however if it was actually the block that
broke. Are you sure it wasn't the timing cover?
Bob


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Old 02-06-2006, 19:01   #8 (permalink)
sdlomi2
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor


"Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:ftsFf.171379$6K2.159888@edtnps90...
> I'd be interested in seeing what kind of cast iron we could "knock off" an
> engine block during water pump replacement.....
>
> Anyway.... "back in the day" before thin wall casting, it wasn't unheard
> of to see a block or manifold that had been welded. The 265 Chev (which
> grew up to be the 350) was prety much the first production thin wall
> block... we saw less and less in the way of welding on these since they
> are a bit more delicate to work with than their progenitors. I must say
> that none of this type of welding was ever done to attach one piece of
> cast to another.... it was done to repair stress cracks and similar
> problems.
>
> The requirements are very simple indeed.... We start with a clean block
> and "nasty bit".... this doesn't stop at free of rust and dirt since cast
> iron is porous... we'll need to be sure to clean it well to avoid any
> inclusions. Once we have the metal prepped, we'll need to decide how to
> grind the pieces to ensure adequate penetration..... without beveling, our
> weld will be like beauty - only skin deep.
>
> Next, we take our handy dandy "rosebud" torch tip and heat everyting up to
> about 500 or so degrees F.... IIRC, you can take it right up to a lttle
> over 1000 degrees, but I wouldn't go any hotter..... You can get one of
> your buddies to maintain the parts at this temp while you are welding
> it.... you don't want it cooling off during the welding process.
>
> Of course, we had to leave the parent metal and the nasty bit quite thick
> to ensure proper alignment so we'll need a pretty hefty DC welder (an AC
> buzz box just wont do).... something that can deliver about 300 amps or so
> should be good. Then, we can take a high nickel electrode from a new,
> unopened package or one that has been properly stored (if the flux gets
> any moisture in it, it will fingernail from the heat of welding and wont
> shield the weld adequately..... the weld will be brittle or weak and
> contain inclusions).
>
> It wont be long after we get the rod into the stinger that we realize
> there's a bit more to this welding thing than poking in the general area
> or our desires and the welder makes it look easy because he does this sort
> of stuff day in and day out....
>
> So... eventually, we get this nasty bit joined back onto the parent piece
> with what appears to be a large wad of used chewing gum...... we grind it
> all down nice and use a die grinder to hog out all the inclusions we can
> see. We can reduce the amperage on our welder, select a thinner electrode,
> have our bud reheat the metal to 500 or so degrees F, and cap the
> inclusions....... the bubble gum doesn't look quite so bad this time and
> it's easier to grind the stuff off and it even almost nearly just about
> looks OK.
>
> After we pack up the welder and the oxy-acetylene rig and pull the roof
> off a few brews congratulating ourselves on a job well done, things may be
> cool enough to reassemble. We get to the bolt closest to the "ex-nasty
> bit" and torque it to spec..... but, wait..... did I hear a little "POP"
> noise??? Hmmmm, better back this bolt out and take a peak.......
>
> SOB..... our "ex-nasty bit" has turned into a new nasty bit. We pick it up
> off the floor and notice that our weld is good since the new nasty bit
> broke off right beside the weld...
>
> About that time, we stroll nonchalantly into the house and look in the
> yellow pages under "auto salvage" to find a good engine core.
>
> Disclaimer.... the preceding piece was written to entertain, amuse and
> inform..... no derision was intended.

I agree, Jim, a job well done. Entertaining and enlightening--much
better than reading flames so often thrown out. s


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Old 02-11-2006, 17:01   #9 (permalink)
Wound Up
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

ladeeda wrote:
> My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
> of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
> the process of replacing a waterpump.
>


How many pounds did the hammer weigh?

> I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
> properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
> I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
> rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.
>
> Anyone up to the challenge?


You need to do a lot more research. This is not soldering.

--
Wound Up
ThunderSnake #65

AHPBBFM pages: http://tinyurl.com/9yulk




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Old 02-12-2006, 08:01   #10 (permalink)
wolfpuppy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Metallic Properties of 351 Windsor

I am pretty sure that the engine block is cast iron, right? As such, I
don't think that you can weld it. Any welder, which I am not, could tell
you in a heartbeat if you could weld cast iron, but I am going to go out on
a limb and say no. I'm guessing that you are talking about a forged tab
where a bolt located. No idea what the fix would be. Good luck. Let us
know if your idea of welding is doable.

"Wound Up" <none@your.disposal> wrote in message
news:43EE80D0.5000003@your.disposal...
> ladeeda wrote:
>> My friend Whitelightning suggested that I find a welder to weld a piece
>> of an engine block onto a 351 Windsor that I believe I knocked off in
>> the process of replacing a waterpump.
>>

>
> How many pounds did the hammer weigh?
>
>> I want to do it myself if possible and would like to know the metallic
>> properties of the engine to prevent chrystallization and brittleness.
>> I have seen welders work and think it may be good to start welding the
>> rust spots around the body also if I keep the van.
>>
>> Anyone up to the challenge?

>
> You need to do a lot more research. This is not soldering.
>
> --
> Wound Up
> ThunderSnake #65
>
> AHPBBFM pages: http://tinyurl.com/9yulk
>
>
>
>



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