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Old 10-11-2005, 19:01   #1 (permalink)
al2.71828x.b@gmail.com
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1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls in 4 sec. after put into any gear

1988 Volvo 244 automatic sedan stalls & quits when put into D or R
after reasonably good start. Have noticed that depressing gas pedal
when in P can also cause stall.

Replaced main fuel pump and filter (the one on undercarriage, slightly
ahead of rear wheels) and can hear this pump buzz for a few seconds
after the engine quits.

Do I need to also replace the fuel tank pump?
Or, are there other causes I should look for?

ANy hints greatly appreciated!
Alex

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Old 10-11-2005, 23:01   #2 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls in 4 sec. after put into any gear

al2.71828x.b@gmail.com wrote:

>1988 Volvo 244 automatic sedan stalls & quits when put into D or R
>after reasonably good start. Have noticed that depressing gas pedal
>when in P can also cause stall.
>
>Replaced main fuel pump and filter (the one on undercarriage, slightly
>ahead of rear wheels) and can hear this pump buzz for a few seconds
>after the engine quits.
>
>Do I need to also replace the fuel tank pump?
>Or, are there other causes I should look for?
>


You are assuming that it is starving for fuel but that is not
necessarily the problem. What you have is a lean run condition that
can be casued by either not enough fuel or too much air.

1) If you have one, check the OBD for fault codes.

2) carefully examine the tube between the air mass meter and the
throttle body. Remove it, place a bright light inside, and look for
areas that could cause air leaks.

3) Check for vacuum leaks elsewhere. There are a LOT of places that
can cause leaks like broken vac hoses, loose fittings, etc.

4) disconnect and reconnect the electrical connection on the air mass
meter.

5) Check the throttle position switch for proper operation and
adjustment.

6) Go to the local pick 'n pull yard and get another air mass meter to
try. Good to have a spare anyway.

7) Have the fuel system checked for proper pressure.

That should keep you busy for an hour or two.. ;-)

BTDT....


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 10-13-2005, 17:01   #3 (permalink)
al2.71828x.b@gmail.com
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls in 4 sec. after put into any gear

THank you for the detailed suggestions.
After a long time under the hood, here's what I found:

1. Don't think I have OBD (on-board diagnostics??)

2. Is the air mass meter mounted directly below the throttle body,
metal, cylindrical, about 1.5" diameter, 2-3" long, and has a 3-wire
plug going into it? Made by Bosch... It has hose connections to both
the air-filter and the engine sides of the throttle body, sitting in
the trough of a "U" hose between those two locations. Or is this
something else? Anyway, hoses there look OK. THe contacts, however,
_are_ a bit corroded. I measured ~ 35 Ohm between two pairs of
contacts, and open between the third possible pair combination. If this
isn't air mass meter, what is it?

3. Found a cracked hose (7/16" OD) between the air-filter side of the
throttle body and a 1-quart size can mounted underneath the battery, in
the front left corner. Looks to be some sort of filter. Is this an
auxiliary air filter?? Excised this bit of cracked hose.

4. Disconnected and reconnected several times the plug going into the
Bosch component described above.

5. Throttle seems to work OK. WIth transmission in Park, the engine
does respond to gas pedal, but does not like sudden changes, i.e. from
idle a sudden and large press on the pedal will kill the engine. But,
if pressed slowly, the engine will rev up to higher rpm and seems
stable. Not sure it's related to this problem or not, but in exhamining
the exhaust by placing a cardboard in the exhaust stream out of
tailpipe, there are black sooty flecks evident. No strong smell of gas,
however.

6. Haven't tried this yet...

7. Will attempt tonight.

Any more ideas/suggestions?? I was slightly optimistic after finding
the cracked hose, but it didn't cure the symptoms..

I'd really like to know whether I correctly located air mass meter...

Also, what is the other electronic device, positioned about mid-way
between air filter and throttle body, which has about 8 terminals in
its plug? It's nearly triangular in shape (perhaps more trapezoidal)
and is quite flat to the ~ 3" hose connecting air filter to throttle
body.

thanks again!
Alex

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Old 10-13-2005, 18:01   #4 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls in 4 sec. after put into any gear

al2.71828x.b@gmail.com wrote:

>THank you for the detailed suggestions.
>After a long time under the hood, here's what I found:
>
>1. Don't think I have OBD (on-board diagnostics??)
>

No it doesn't. According to the Bentley manual the 88's had the LH 2.2
system and that does not have it... too bad.

>2. Is the air mass meter mounted directly below the throttle body,
>metal, cylindrical, about 1.5" diameter, 2-3" long, and has a 3-wire
>plug going into it?
>

No- that's the air control valve that regulates the amount of air
going into the engine at idle.

>...Made by Bosch... It has hose connections to both
>the air-filter and the engine sides of the throttle body, sitting in
>the trough of a "U" hose between those two locations. Or is this
>something else? Anyway, hoses there look OK. THe contacts, however,
>_are_ a bit corroded. I measured ~ 35 Ohm between two pairs of
>contacts, and open between the third possible pair combination. If this
>isn't air mass meter, what is it?
>

be careful when conneecting test meters t components. SOme of them are
very sensitive and require a test meter with at least 10 MegOhms
resistance through them or the part can be damaged, etc.

>3. Found a cracked hose (7/16" OD) between the air-filter side of the
>throttle body and a 1-quart size can mounted underneath the battery, in
>the front left corner. Looks to be some sort of filter. Is this an
>auxiliary air filter?? Excised this bit of cracked hose.
>

Sounds like the fuel evaporative cannister.

>4. Disconnected and reconnected several times the plug going into the
>Bosch component described above.
>

Couldn't hurt... unless you break it. ;-)

>5. Throttle seems to work OK. WIth transmission in Park, the engine
>does respond to gas pedal, but does not like sudden changes, i.e. from
>idle a sudden and large press on the pedal will kill the engine. But,
>if pressed slowly, the engine will rev up to higher rpm and seems
>stable. Not sure it's related to this problem or not, but in exhamining
>the exhaust by placing a cardboard in the exhaust stream out of
>tailpipe, there are black sooty flecks evident. No strong smell of gas,
>however.
>

That's what mine was doing when the Air mass meter was ill. I got a
lot of what looked like condensation out of the exhaust. The Air mass
Meter is located in the large air intake hose between the air filter
and the throttle body. it is large and black with a silver metal
flat-sided areas with one electrical connector on it. You will know
you found it when you disconnect it and start the car and it goes into
"limp mode" which caises the car to run very rich and only do about
2500 RPM tops. Find a used one- it's a good bet that if it isn't bad
now (and I think it is) you will need it eventually.


>Also, what is the other electronic device, positioned about mid-way
>between air filter and throttle body, which has about 8 terminals in
>its plug? It's nearly triangular in shape (perhaps more trapezoidal)
>and is quite flat to the ~ 3" hose connecting air filter to throttle
>body.
>

Yup... that's the one
From a Pick 'n Pull yard about $25
On E-Bay about $50
Undependable rebuilt $190
Slightly more dependable rebuilt $280
New from Volvo $700+ I think.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 10-14-2005, 11:01   #5 (permalink)
al2.71828x.b@gmail.com
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately if put into any gear

> >1. Don't think I have OBD (on-board diagnostics??)
> >

> No it doesn't. According to the Bentley manual the 88's had the LH 2.2
> system and that does not have it... too bad.


THanks for that bit. The Chilton manual that I have isn't very helpful
in that regard. And when I located the Bosch Jetronic control, it
didn't have any label to indicate 2.2 or II...

> >5. Throttle seems to work OK. WIth transmission in Park, the engine
> >does respond to gas pedal, but does not like sudden changes, i.e. from
> >idle a sudden and large press on the pedal will kill the engine. But,
> >if pressed slowly, the engine will rev up to higher rpm and seems
> >stable. Not sure it's related to this problem or not, but in exhamining
> >the exhaust by placing a cardboard in the exhaust stream out of
> >tailpipe, there are black sooty flecks evident. No strong smell of gas,
> >however.
> >

> That's what mine was doing when the Air mass meter was ill. I got a
> lot of what looked like condensation out of the exhaust. The Air mass
> Meter is located in the large air intake hose between the air filter
> and the throttle body. it is large and black with a silver metal
> flat-sided areas with one electrical connector on it. You will know
> you found it when you disconnect it and start the car and it goes into
> "limp mode" which caises the car to run very rich and only do about
> 2500 RPM tops. Find a used one- it's a good bet that if it isn't bad
> now (and I think it is) you will need it eventually.


I pulled out the air mass meter last night. At least physically, it
looks OK. The three filament wires are intact. If it's really
non-functional, would I be able to bring the car (while in Park) from
idle to very high rpm, albeit only with very slow pedal movement?
(don't know what the rpm was, without tachometer :( )
If it is truly bad, and causes running very rich due to "limp mode",
would this explain the sooty exhaust? If Very rich, I would expect to
smell a lot of gasoline from the tailpipe., and see condensation, as
you describe, not so much soot.


Reading other posts, I was also suspicious of the in-tank pump and
filter & hoses, as well as fuel pump relay.

Fuel pump relay looks OK, no broken solder connections, as others have
found (rats!).

I located the leads to the in-tank pump. There are 3 leads going ito
the tank.

Brown: attached to chassis GND just before entering tank pump.

Grey: fuel tank gauge sender (confirmed by test with ignition key
to Run posn, and connecting the wires one at a time to see which made
the gauge move)

Black: + lead for fuel-tank pump -- must be, it's the only
remaining choice

The black wire connects to a red-yellow wire. Sound right for the
in-tank pump?

I measured open circuit between GND and Black. Should see something, if
it's a DC motor on the other end! About 500 Ohm between GND and Grey.
12 V on the Black wire appears to do nothing -- no pump noise. Should I
hear the tank pump? I removed tank cap, and opened the flap with a
screwdriver, with ear close to it. Still no noise. Should have tried
the ampmeter, will check tonight.

Thank you again for your helpful comments.
Alex

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Old 10-14-2005, 12:01   #6 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately if put into any gear

al2.71828x.b@gmail.com wrote:
> The Chilton manual that I have isn't very helpful
>in that regard. And when I located the Bosch Jetronic control, it
>didn't have any label to indicate 2.2 or II...
>

I HIGHLY recommend the Bentley manual for anyone working on a 240.
Choice number two is the Haynes. If you have a wobbly table, get the
Chilton. Actually I have not seen the Chilton 240 manual, but if it is
anything like the 960 manual it's only positive feature is that it is
flammable and easily ignited.

>I pulled out the air mass meter last night. At least physically, it
>looks OK. The three filament wires are intact. If it's really
>non-functional, would I be able to bring the car (while in Park) from
>idle to very high rpm, albeit only with very slow pedal movement?
>(don't know what the rpm was, without tachometer.
>

They don't always fail totally, and when not working properly the car
will still run but poorly. There is virtually no way to check it
visually. Even if the wires are intact it means nothing. If they were
not intact the car would be in limp mode. There are a couple of basic
voltmeter tests but they are just abut useless because they can show
that the AMM is good when it is not (BTDT got the shirt). This is a
very sensitive and precise piece of equipment and if it is feeding the
wrong signal to the computer the car will run poorly... downright
crappy, really. For some documentation, look at these threads:

save me from running around
still having problems with my 240
Still trying to get it running right
AMM - more Q's

As you will see, I played with mine for about two weeks before I broke
down, got a used AMM and tried it. The car immediately ran great. If
you intend to keep the car for any length of time, pick up a used AMM
on eBay or at the local Pick 'n Pull. Worst case, you can always sell
it later on eBay.

>If it is truly bad, and causes running very rich due to "limp mode",
>would this explain the sooty exhaust?
>

Just disconnect it and start the car. You will know what limp mode is
immediately. Low power, poor throttle response, exceedingly rich
mixture, and no more than about 3500 RPM. As I have said, there is all
kinds of bad with AMMs. A slightly incorrect signal (which cannot be
detected any wa I know) will cause a poor running car. The symptoms
can be wide-ranging and can even change from day to day. it will make
you think that, at any given time, one or more of the things have
problems:
-Idle air control valve
-vacuum leaks
-intake leaks
-throttle position switch failure
-clogged fuel injector
-low fuel pressure
-high fuel pressure
-stuck open cold-start injector
etc., etc., etc., ... did I mention "etc."?

>If Very rich, I would expect to
>smell a lot of gasoline from the tailpipe., and see condensation, as
>you describe, not so much soot.
>

There are a lot of levels of rich, and if your car has a catalytic
convertor there may not be as much gas smell as you might normally
expect. With the computer controlled systems, if the car is a little
rich the O2 sensor tells the computer and the computer tries to
compensate. In the meantime the AMM is telling the computer that X
amount of air is passing by when in actuality (X + Y) or maybe even (X
- Y) is passing by. So the computer, much like a married man, is
trying to please the wife and Motherinlaw at the same time, and we all
know that NEVER works if both are living! ;-)

The computer depends on accurate signals from a lot of places, and one
of the most critical is the amount of air passing into the motor. That
is what the AMM senses. When it is just a little off the computer has
a really difficult time getting things to run correctly.


>Reading other posts, I was also suspicious of the in-tank pump and
>filter & hoses, as well as fuel pump relay.
>

If you can get it up to about 3,000 rpm and hold it there, then the
pumps should be OK. There are pressure and volume tests that can be
done to verify this. You can also try removing and plugging the vac
line to the pressure regulator at the end of the fuel rail (don't run
it too long that way as it boosts pressure to the injectors at certain
times beyond what they need).

>Fuel pump relay looks OK, no broken solder connections, as others have
>found (rats!).
>

I carry a spare, just in case...

>I located the leads to the in-tank pump. There are 3 leads going ito
>the tank.
>
> Brown: attached to chassis GND just before entering tank pump.
>
> Grey: fuel tank gauge sender (confirmed by test with ignition key
>to Run posn, and connecting the wires one at a time to see which made
>the gauge move)
>
> Black: + lead for fuel-tank pump -- must be, it's the only
>remaining choice
>
>The black wire connects to a red-yellow wire. Sound right for the
>in-tank pump?
>
>I measured open circuit between GND and Black. Should see something, if
>it's a DC motor on the other end! About 500 Ohm between GND and Grey.
>12 V on the Black wire appears to do nothing -- no pump noise. Should I
>hear the tank pump? I removed tank cap, and opened the flap with a
>screwdriver, with ear close to it. Still no noise. Should have tried
>the ampmeter, will check tonight.
>


Someone else more experienced and knowledgeable will have to comment
on the specifics of this. Someone tell my wife that there _IS_
something I don't know. She would never believe it from me... ;-)

The pump would be difficult to hear with the motor running. When you
turn the key on (from P-I to P-II) the pump should run for about two
seconds or so, then shut off. If you can get the motor to run at about
2500-3500 RPM and stay there, then there is a good supply of fuel-
whether it is sufficient or not takes a pressure gauge to test.

You need to get the Bentley manual! It has a number of tests that can
be done with a good volt/ohm meter. it is a very useful book to have.

>Thank you again for your helpful comments.
>

Air mass Meter... That's my vote, but read my previous posts and see
what my car was doing to be sure.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 10-14-2005, 20:01   #7 (permalink)
James Sweet
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately if put into any gear


>
> THanks for that bit. The Chilton manual that I have isn't very helpful
> in that regard. And when I located the Bosch Jetronic control, it
> didn't have any label to indicate 2.2 or II...
>


Chilton's manuals are worthless, at least for Volvos. Haynes is much better,
Bentley is better yet.


>
> I pulled out the air mass meter last night. At least physically, it
> looks OK. The three filament wires are intact. If it's really
> non-functional, would I be able to bring the car (while in Park) from
> idle to very high rpm, albeit only with very slow pedal movement?
> (don't know what the rpm was, without tachometer :( )
> If it is truly bad, and causes running very rich due to "limp mode",
> would this explain the sooty exhaust? If Very rich, I would expect to
> smell a lot of gasoline from the tailpipe., and see condensation, as
> you describe, not so much soot.
>



I've never seen a failed AMM that had any visible problems, usually they
just stop working correctly.


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Old 10-15-2005, 15:01   #8 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately if put into any gear

al2.71828x.b@gmail.com wrote:

>Thank you again for your helpful comments.


You never mentioned whether there is a pick and Pull in your area, nor
what the # of the AMM is....?



__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 10-16-2005, 23:01   #9 (permalink)
al2.71828x.b@gmail.com
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately if put into any gear

> You never mentioned whether there is a pick and Pull in your area, nor
> what the # of the AMM is....?


Bosch 0280 212 007

In the Bay Area of CA, not many salvage yards around... I guess the
real-estate prices are too high. One place I called *might* have had
one Volvo, guy was going to check, but never called back. I guess that
means "no".

Your initial guess turned out to be absolutely correct.
It was the air mass meter. I ended up buying one today from a reputable
local store for $179, a Bosch remanufactured by A1 Carbone.
Installing it in the car resulted in performance restored.

I saw online that AutopartsGiant.com has them from AC Delco for $123,
but didn't know whether this online store is trustworthy. ANy
experience with their parts?

Your earlier suggestion about carefully inspecting the large hose
between filter & throttle body also proved prescient. I found several
of the flex sections between the AMM and throttle body were worn
through by contact with the mass of wires resting on them.

In retrospect, the failed AMM also explains another odd symptom I
observed a month ago: sooty exhaust, and, when examining the spark
plugs and seeing all 4 covered by a sooty black, I assumed the worst:
burning oil. I was skeptical that all 4 cylinders should start burning
oil simultaneously. Now it is clear that this was caused by the AMM's
"limp mode" and extremely rich running!!
20/20 hindsight indeed.

BTW, the in-tank fuel pump was indeed bad. Attaching ammeter to it with
car running showed zero current flow.
Replaced it and I could hear it humm when listening in the trunk above
the access port. Quite a challenging puzzle to extract the pump and
fuel gauge sender through that tiny hole.
For a while now, I haven't heard the tank de-pressurize when opening
the cap to refuel. With the pump fixed, should I hear that again?

Next task: replacing the seveal belts I noticed developing cracks while
searching underneath the car for cracked vacuum hoses...

Thank you again for your help. This site & knowledgeable contributors
such as yourself are a great help to those of us without much
experience in diagnosing car problems, but with willingness to try it.

Alex

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Old 10-22-2005, 04:01   #10 (permalink)
Stef Caunter
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Re: 1988 Volvo 244 auto starts & idles ok, stalls immediately ifput into any gear


On Mon, 16 Oct 2005, al2.71828x.b@gmail.com wrote:

> I saw online that AutopartsGiant.com has them from AC Delco for $123,
> but didn't know whether this online store is trustworthy. ANy
> experience with their parts?


The best online parts for Volvo is FCPGroton.com (no affilation). Reasonable
and quick shipping.
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