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Old 04-20-2005, 15:01   #1 (permalink)
blurp
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Posts: n/a
Question for Ontario Drivers

Hi all,

If a mechanic "Certifies" a vehicle (a safety certificate) and the
vehicle does not meet the safety requirements, are they liable for
anything? I had assumed that if they certified a vehicle as safe and
it wasn't that they might suffer consequences like losing their
license or something. I don't mean if there's an accident, I mean if
they just didn't do their job and you catch them.

A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
(this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
there).

About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.

The Ministry was a bit annoying, making her feel bad first ("Why would
you even buy a car that old?") and then telling her that their
regulations were out of date. They sent someone to look at the car who
contacted the certifying garage and told them to fix it. That's it.

So now she has to go all the way out there to poeple who ripped her
off in the first place and hope that they will do a good job this
time. Is that it? Can they not be fined or something? Does someone
have to die before the fraudulent certifier feels any consequences?

What about the dealer who charged her $475 and was supposed to take
care of this?

She wants to burn them all to the ground (figuratively) and I just
want to help her get some justice.

Thanks for any suggestions or answers you may have.
blurp
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Old 04-20-2005, 15:01   #2 (permalink)
Stephen Henning
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Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

blurp <admin@hotmail.com> wrote:

> A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
> Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
> Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
> indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
> pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
> which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
> (this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
> impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
> there).
>
> About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
> that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
> by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
> to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.


These are not major violations.

The parking brake is most likely a cable problem. If the parking brake
on a 240 is not used, it tends to freeze up. Many people have this
problem and don't know it since they don't use the parking brake.

Since this is a unibody, the body rot in the floor area usually is not
critical except for keeping out toxic gases from the exhaust. A simple
patch job that seals out the gases will make it safe. Also, a check for
exhaust leaks is a good step.

I agree that the scoundrels that sold the car were unscrupulous but I
don't think I would trust them to make good. I would try to get them to
pay for a reputable shop to do the work. In the US a Attorney General
has this power. He finds the shop in violation of state laws and orders
them to make good as part of a settlement. Your mileage may vary.
--
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA, USA
Owned '67,'68,'71,'74,'79,'81,'87,'93,'95 & '01 Volvos.
The '67,'74,'79,'87,'95 and '01 through European Delivery.
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/volvo.html
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Old 04-21-2005, 06:01   #3 (permalink)
Mike F
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Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

blurp wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> If a mechanic "Certifies" a vehicle (a safety certificate) and the
> vehicle does not meet the safety requirements, are they liable for
> anything? I had assumed that if they certified a vehicle as safe and
> it wasn't that they might suffer consequences like losing their
> license or something. I don't mean if there's an accident, I mean if
> they just didn't do their job and you catch them.
>
> A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
> Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
> Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
> indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
> pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
> which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
> (this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
> impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
> there).
>
> About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
> that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
> by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
> to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.
>
> The Ministry was a bit annoying, making her feel bad first ("Why would
> you even buy a car that old?") and then telling her that their
> regulations were out of date. They sent someone to look at the car who
> contacted the certifying garage and told them to fix it. That's it.
>
> So now she has to go all the way out there to poeple who ripped her
> off in the first place and hope that they will do a good job this
> time. Is that it? Can they not be fined or something? Does someone
> have to die before the fraudulent certifier feels any consequences?
>
> What about the dealer who charged her $475 and was supposed to take
> care of this?
>
> She wants to burn them all to the ground (figuratively) and I just
> want to help her get some justice.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or answers you may have.
> blurp


That's pretty much all I've ever heard happening - if a garage misses
something required for certification, then they fix it at their
expense. My neighbour got a free fuel sender for the certified 240 he
bought that had a fuel leak. I don't think there's any penalties unless
there's repeated, frequent occurrences.

--
Mike F.
Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont.

Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly.
(But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.)
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Old 04-21-2005, 21:01   #4 (permalink)
Jim Carriere
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Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

Stephen Henning wrote:
> blurp <admin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
>>that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
>>by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
>>to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.

>
>
> These are not major violations.
>
> The parking brake is most likely a cable problem. If the parking brake
> on a 240 is not used, it tends to freeze up. Many people have this
> problem and don't know it since they don't use the parking brake.


IIRC, the parking brake used to be part of the safety inspection in
Ontario. I havn't lived there in close to ten years, so maybe it's
different or maybe I'm plain wrong. Speaking of that, it was part of
a fairly unambiguous list, such as wear remaining on the brakes, play
in suspension and steering gear, headlights/taillights, etc. I'm
pretty sure it did not include an emissions test, that may be changed
now. Most places used to charge about $50 for the inspection.

It may be worthwhile to bring the car to a different garage and have
it checked out. Hopefully this car is just missing the parking brake
and has some bad spots underneath, nothing worse, but my money is on
other problems.

> I agree that the scoundrels that sold the car were unscrupulous but I
> don't think I would trust them to make good. I would try to get them to


Agree with you here, enough said!
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Old 04-22-2005, 12:02   #5 (permalink)
blurp
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:10:41 -0400, the illustrious Mike F
<"mikef2316()"@allsttream.nett> favored us with the following prose:

>blurp wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> If a mechanic "Certifies" a vehicle (a safety certificate) and the
>> vehicle does not meet the safety requirements, are they liable for
>> anything? I had assumed that if they certified a vehicle as safe and
>> it wasn't that they might suffer consequences like losing their
>> license or something. I don't mean if there's an accident, I mean if
>> they just didn't do their job and you catch them.
>>
>> A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
>> Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
>> Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
>> indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
>> pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
>> which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
>> (this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
>> impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
>> there).
>>
>> About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
>> that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
>> by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
>> to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.
>>
>> The Ministry was a bit annoying, making her feel bad first ("Why would
>> you even buy a car that old?") and then telling her that their
>> regulations were out of date. They sent someone to look at the car who
>> contacted the certifying garage and told them to fix it. That's it.
>>
>> So now she has to go all the way out there to poeple who ripped her
>> off in the first place and hope that they will do a good job this
>> time. Is that it? Can they not be fined or something? Does someone
>> have to die before the fraudulent certifier feels any consequences?
>>
>> What about the dealer who charged her $475 and was supposed to take
>> care of this?
>>
>> She wants to burn them all to the ground (figuratively) and I just
>> want to help her get some justice.
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions or answers you may have.
>> blurp

>
>That's pretty much all I've ever heard happening - if a garage misses
>something required for certification, then they fix it at their
>expense. My neighbour got a free fuel sender for the certified 240 he
>bought that had a fuel leak. I don't think there's any penalties unless
>there's repeated, frequent occurrences.


UPDATE:

Well the guy from the ministry came down to South Scarborough Motors
where the holes in the floor were found and they went over the car
with him. To all of their surprise the only real problems with the car
were the parking brake and the holes in the floor. They even removed
the back seat to get a look underneath and both commented that it's in
remarkably good shape for its age.

The ministry guy then called the original certifying garage and told
them they had to fix the brake and the floor and that he would be
checking the result. So on Monday my friend is taking it back to the
fraudsters for repair.

Thanks all for your input. It helps to get corroborating 2nd and 3rd
opinions.

blurp
ps. South Scarborough have been absolutely terrific throughout this
process. They have put in at least 3 hours of their time spread over 2
separate occasions and have not charged my friend a penny. If you're
looking for an honest organization and you're in the east end, I can
give them a strong recommendation. I have had differences of opinion
with them in the past but they have really shown themselves to be an
excellent shop.

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Old 04-23-2005, 15:01   #6 (permalink)
James Linn
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

blurp wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If a mechanic "Certifies" a vehicle (a safety certificate) and the
> vehicle does not meet the safety requirements, are they liable for
> anything? I had assumed that if they certified a vehicle as safe and
> it wasn't that they might suffer consequences like losing their
> license or something. I don't mean if there's an accident, I mean if
> they just didn't do their job and you catch them.
>
> A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
> Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
> Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
> indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
> pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
> which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
> (this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
> impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
> there).
>
> About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
> that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
> by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
> to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.
>
> The Ministry was a bit annoying, making her feel bad first ("Why would
> you even buy a car that old?") and then telling her that their
> regulations were out of date. They sent someone to look at the car who
> contacted the certifying garage and told them to fix it. That's it.
>
> So now she has to go all the way out there to poeple who ripped her
> off in the first place and hope that they will do a good job this
> time. Is that it? Can they not be fined or something? Does someone
> have to die before the fraudulent certifier feels any consequences?
>
> What about the dealer who charged her $475 and was supposed to take
> care of this?
>
> She wants to burn them all to the ground (figuratively) and I just
> want to help her get some justice.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions or answers you may have.
> blurp


In Ontario, safety certification typically costs 40 - $50 dollars - I
certified a 1983 240 GL last fall. And Drive clean is mandated to cost
no more than $30.00

So something is amiss there. I have had to have parking brakes fixed as
a result of a safety - its pretty common to have something not used
seize up.

I have safetied Volvoes with rust through by doing my own fibreglass
patch job. Is it behind the rear wheel well?

James

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Old 04-24-2005, 20:01   #7 (permalink)
hottered blasphemy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

James Linn wrote:
> blurp wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> If a mechanic "Certifies" a vehicle (a safety certificate) and the
>> vehicle does not meet the safety requirements, are they liable for
>> anything? I had assumed that if they certified a vehicle as safe and
>> it wasn't that they might suffer consequences like losing their
>> license or something. I don't mean if there's an accident, I mean if
>> they just didn't do their job and you catch them.
>>
>> A friend of mine recently purchased a car from a place out in deep
>> Mississauga. They had advertised the car, a 1986 240DL, as $1995
>> Certified and E-tested and a drive and a visual inspection seemd to
>> indicate the car was in pretty good shape. When my friend went in to
>> pay for the car she was told there was a $475 "Administration Fee"
>> which would cover all of the costs of Certification and E-testing
>> (this stank of bait-and-switch to me but the location was so
>> impossible she agreed so she could pick it up on the next trip out
>> there).
>> About 10 days later I had the opportunity to drive the car and found
>> that the parking brake was completely non-functional. Closer scrutiny
>> by another mechanic revealed that the underbody was rotted out enough
>> to push one's finger through and they had just spray-painted it black.
>>
>> The Ministry was a bit annoying, making her feel bad first ("Why would
>> you even buy a car that old?") and then telling her that their
>> regulations were out of date. They sent someone to look at the car who
>> contacted the certifying garage and told them to fix it. That's it.
>>
>> So now she has to go all the way out there to poeple who ripped her
>> off in the first place and hope that they will do a good job this
>> time. Is that it? Can they not be fined or something? Does someone
>> have to die before the fraudulent certifier feels any consequences?
>> What about the dealer who charged her $475 and was supposed to take
>> care of this?
>> She wants to burn them all to the ground (figuratively) and I just
>> want to help her get some justice.
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions or answers you may have.
>> blurp

>
>
> In Ontario, safety certification typically costs 40 - $50 dollars - I
> certified a 1983 240 GL last fall. And Drive clean is mandated to cost
> no more than $30.00
>
> So something is amiss there. I have had to have parking brakes fixed as
> a result of a safety - its pretty common to have something not used
> seize up.
>
> I have safetied Volvoes with rust through by doing my own fibreglass
> patch job. Is it behind the rear wheel well?
>
> James
>

Drive clean test is mandated to $35.00 CDN with only GST tax on it
If it fails the new limits set this past Jan 1st the owner can qualify
to have a conditional pass for him/herself only (not for owner transfer)
til next time it's due for the same test, the conditions are having the
car inspected at an accredited repair facility recognisized for
competency (one having at least one repair tech who passed special
tests)and pay no more than $450.00 CDN and a re-test at same facility
for half the original test ($17.50)If certain safety concerns arrise
before the test even takes place the car may be refused the test all
together, and the initial test is vapours from the gas cap - if it fails
the test has to be aborted)
I hope everything is relatively clear about the ministry's Drive Clean
emission testing?

Danil
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:01   #8 (permalink)
TRONDATA
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Posts: n/a
Re: Question for Ontario Drivers

Sorry that I did not have a chance to respond earlier. I have been without
a news server for a while now.

Regarding drive clean, when the car is 20 years old I believe it's exempt.
This is the case even with my 1980 262C. I wonder if a car was initially
tested, whether it become exempt after 20 years. So, an eTest in 2006 may
not be necessary - yet another inconsistency with this program. I was
speaking to an MOT official about YOM license plates and she admitted the
Drive Clean program is far from perfect, but it's here to stay!

Advice for any used car purchase in Ontario - take the car to your preferred
mechanic or even a Volvo garage and pay for a "safety inspection" before you
purchase the car. If the seller objects, then he/she is hiding something.
As we all know, the southern corridor, along the US border is known as the
"rust belt". My experience is that even a 20 year old Volvo is not any
better than other cars in this climate. The difference is the previous
owners care at keeping the exposure to a minimum, annual oil sprays (since
new) and routine maintenance.

Since this was posted a few months ago, how did your friend make out?

Cam a.k.a. CVOLVO.COM Newington, Ontario


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